Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
Some good reading / opinions on this here. ( esp. in Comments ) http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/design/iframes_vs_overflow.php Regards Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 15:10, Chris wrote: Hi, I the process of a design that begs overflow: auto; what is theopinion on this wonderful alternative to frames? Computers need more Africa in them. -Brian Eno Chris * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] scrolling area
Is there any way you can convince your client that custom scrollbars are are bad idea? Because 1. oh boy, they are (they're less accessible, they're less functional, they act unpredictably, their implementation is invariably mind-bogglingly complicated), and 2. while it's probably possible to achieve what you're after, the effort that you're going to need to put in to do so is going to be incredibly disproportionate to the reward (unless you're being very well paid, and by the hour :) Cheers, Andrew Taumoefolau * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
Well personally I prefer overflow: auto to frames, because frames slices up your document... I much prefer to have a single page - be just that... a single page, not a seperate document. Also you dont need to worry about stylesheets not applying to the frame etc... I havn't used frames since back in my early years when I first used frontpage... ahhh... yeah - i actually said I used frontpage... well that was YEARS ago... Anyway, like I said. I prefer a document, to be 1 document. Not 1 document, with 3 frames linking to 3 other documents... - Chris Stratford Chris wrote: Hi, I the process of a design that begs overflow: auto; what is the opinion on this wonderful alternative to frames? "Computers need more Africa in them." -Brian Eno Chris
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
Title: Re: [WSG] overflow: auto; On 6/14/04 11:21 PM t94xr.net.nz webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: excellent example www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ http://www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ Camz Doesn't work in Safari, though? Rick Faaberg
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
On Tuesday, June 15, 2004, at 04:29 PM, Rick Faaberg wrote: On 6/14/04 11:21 PM t94xr.net.nz webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out: excellent example www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ http://www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/> Camz Doesn't work in Safari, though? Rick Faaberg Which Safari? Works OK in 1.0.2 on 10.2.8... Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
On 6/14/04 11:46 PM Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: excellent example www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ http://www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ Camz Doesn't work in Safari, though? Rick Faaberg Which Safari? Works OK in 1.0.2 on 10.2.8... Nick 1.2.2 I don't get scrollbars. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
On 6/14/04 11:54 PM Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: excellent example www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ http://www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ Camz Doesn't work in Safari, though? Rick Faaberg Which Safari? Works OK in 1.0.2 on 10.2.8... Nick 1.2.2 I don't get scrollbars. I meant to say I get the scrollbars but no arrow buttons to use for scrolling. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
Title: Re: [WSG] overflow: auto; Doesnt it?! http://www.danvine.com/icapture/detail/51923.html works ok on iCapture?
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
Title: Re: [WSG] overflow: auto; On 6/15/04 12:18 AM t94xr.net.nz webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Doesnt it?! http://www.danvine.com/icapture/detail/51923.html works ok on iCapture? Do we know they have 1.2.2? It still doesn't work on my 1.2.2 (v125.8), that's for sure. Rick Faaberg
Re: [WSG] HTML, CSS and Mobiles
Lachlan Hardy wrote: Chris Stratford wrote: So its incorrectly loading the media for SCREEN... and wont load CSS from one method either... This is fairly typical of small-screen devices. Since most web developers don't use CSS properly yet, and many of those who do don't create handheld CSS, browser developers for small-screen devices have had to work out hacks to attempt to make the site conform to their requirements Applying the wrong one if the correct one isn't available I understand, but I can't imagine that it would be so hard to at least check for a handheld style sheet before applying the screen one. Would browser sniffing work? If so, which agents aren't well behaved (and are there any which are)? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
On 6/15/04 12:29 AM t94xr.net.nz webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ http://www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ Camz I meant to say I get the scrollbars but no arrow buttons to use for scrolling. Rick Faaberg Can you use your wheel on the mouse? There's no way to focus - there are no scroll arrows. Here's what I see: http://www.namtc.org/overflow.pdf No scroll arrows! Maybe it's a system setting or something; I'm looking... I'll stop bothering the list. If anybody knows the answer, offlist is fine. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
On 6/15/04 12:45 AM Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ http://www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ Camz I meant to say I get the scrollbars but no arrow buttons to use for scrolling. Rick Faaberg Can you use your wheel on the mouse? There's no way to focus - there are no scroll arrows. Here's what I see: http://www.namtc.org/overflow.pdf No scroll arrows! Maybe it's a system setting or something; I'm looking... I'll stop bothering the list. If anybody knows the answer, offlist is fine. If anybody cares, I found the solution to the problem. If I set Scroll Bar Arrows to Single (instead of Double or Double at End) using Control Freak, then everything displays as it should. So there we go - I'd consider it a Safari bug and I'll report it when I figure out how to do that (don't worry, I will). Thanks also for the offlist helpers - you know who you are! :-) Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Quick accessibility question
Here's a quick (and probably stupid) accessibility question regarding screen readers. labelspanS/spanearch/label I assume the a screen reader will read this out as Search and not S earch. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] FW: OZeWAI Dec 1-3, 2004 CFP
Hi all I came across the following from W3C's WAI Interest Group email list. Costs are as follows: All 3 days: $400 for full registration ($300 for student registration) Day Pass: $150 for daily registration (incl GST.). (so $300 for 2 days, $150 for 1 day) Its in Melbourne and one of the speakers will be Steven Faulkner, a fellow WSG member (I believe) who created the IE Accessibility Toolbar (http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/) For further details, see the website detailed below Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Liddy Nevile Sent: Friday, 11 June 2004 8:40 AM To: Subject: OZeWAI Dec 1-3, 2004 CFP Please excuse any cross-postings but do pass this on to others who may be interested. OZeWAI 2004 will be held at La Trobe University, Melbourne, December 1-3. This is a small but high-quality conference that caters for all with an interest in accessibility. This year, there will be a special focus on the accessibility of educational materials and how they are developed, identified, discovered, and repaired. Managers, techies, users, researchers, and more are invited to contribute in any of the many ways we provide for conference participants. Please visit our call for proposals and send us your proposal! See http://www.ozewai.org/2004/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Quick accessibility question
Tested with JAWS 4.02, and yes, it reads it as search. That's not to say, though, that all screenreaders behave this way... Let me guess...underlines for accesskeys ? One thing that worries me about doing those sorts of things is that the result is very...non semantic. Not sure how, say, search engines would react to seeing Words broken up like that. Would they still index the word itself, or would they see an S and earch? (sure, in this case it doesn't make a difference, but I'm thinking in more general terms, e.g. headings using an image as an ornate initial or something - search engines would presumably not recognise the designer's intention - why should they? - and not see the word as a whole). Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk -Original Message- From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 June 2004 11:39 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Quick accessibility question Here's a quick (and probably stupid) accessibility question regarding screen readers. labelspanS/spanearch/label I assume the a screen reader will read this out as Search and not S earch. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Very odd behaviour on IE5 Mac. Any ideas?
Hello WSG, I'm having very strange problems with the site I'm working on. I've been given the unenviable task of going through someone else's CSS to fix any bugs in IE 5 Mac PC. Fixed the IE5 PC bugs but am stuck with this odd behaviour in IE5 Mac. Basically the content in the left hand boxes jumps down whenever the mouse pointer hovers over a link. The hover behviour is through CSS with JS to overcome IE's lack of support. I'm not looking for a fix necessarily but just some ideas so that I can at least identify the problem or if anybody has seen anything similar and can give me some pointers. (The site is mostly standards compliant but .NET being what it is means it doesn't validate and is alas out of my control). The page: www.startset.com/csshelp/homepage.html and the CSS www.startset.com/csshelp/main.css Thanks in advance, Joe * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
Hi, It works in my safari :) On Monday, June 14, 2004, at 11:21 PM, t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote: excellent example www.t94xr.net.nz/plinks/ Camz - Original Message - From: Chris To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 5:10 PM Subject: [WSG] overflow: auto; Hi, I the process of a design that begs overflow: auto; what is the opinion on this wonderful alternative to frames? Computers need more Africa in them. -Brian Eno Chris
Re: [WSG] Quick accessibility question
On 15 Jun 2004, at 12:34, Andy Budd wrote:
I agree with you. It's not the nicest way of doing this. I think
using the :first-letter pseudo-element selector would probably be a
better bet.
Much neater, until you need accesskeys for both Search and Services of
course. I'm sure some clever person could apply the underlining to
links with accesskeys via the DOM.
Assuming Andy is along the write lines with his span tags (and I see
no reason why not), the pseudo code might be something like:
for each link in the document {
if link has an accesskey attribute {
split link text at first instance of accesskey value
wrap a span around the accesskey value
recombine the link text
write modified link text back into DOM
}
}
Anyone fancy a bit of fun making that work? Would it actually be useful?
Rich.
*
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
Re: [WSG] Quick accessibility question
On 15 Jun 2004, at 17:55, Richard Rutter wrote: Anyone fancy a bit of fun making that work? Would it actually be useful? If you want something doing... A script which uses the DOM to automatically underline the letter of a link text which matches its accesskey: http://clagnut.com/sandbox/dynamic-accesskeys/ Any use? In some ways this could be using JavaScript to increase accessibility, or least stop mark-up getting in the way. Rich. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Quick accessibility question
Hey, that looks interesting, Richard. You got me thinking. Nice one :o) Mike Pepper (thoughtful) Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Rutter Sent: 15 June 2004 22:15 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Quick accessibility question On 15 Jun 2004, at 17:55, Richard Rutter wrote: Anyone fancy a bit of fun making that work? Would it actually be useful? If you want something doing... A script which uses the DOM to automatically underline the letter of a link text which matches its accesskey: http://clagnut.com/sandbox/dynamic-accesskeys/ Any use? In some ways this could be using JavaScript to increase accessibility, or least stop mark-up getting in the way. Rich. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Very odd behaviour on IE5 Mac. Any ideas?
Hi Try hiding the CSS from this magnificent piece of software by using the \*/ hack as outlined elsewhere in a thread here (try mail-archive.com) - it's called the backslash hack, It's the only hack I've employed as users on OS 8 and 9 have no upgrade path. Does tend to bloat the CSS a tad as duplicate rules are added. Cheers James Joe Leech wrote: Hello WSG, .. Fixed the IE5 PC bugs but am stuck with this odd behaviour in IE5 Mac. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] IE:Mac clears float for no apparent reason
Hi all, I have redesigned a site from Dreamweaver table city to XHTML 1.0 strict. It's mostly gone well, but Internet Explorer 5.2 for Mac has a couple of issues. The one I'm trying to solve right now is apparent on this page: http://www.organicdance.com.au/organicdance/site/about It seems that the h2About the Facilitator/h2 clears the float set on the image above -- even if I set all margins and paddings to 0, set the H2's width to 200px *and* explicitly set clear: none on the H2. This may be a bug or I may have overlooked something. But the float works properly in every modern browser other than Mac IE 5.2 Any help on this would be much appreciated Cheers, Vik * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Very odd behaviour on IE5 Mac. Any ideas?
Joe, Don't know if this will help at all, and I haven't looked closely at the code (I don't envy your job there at all!) but it does look as though whatever it is has a cumulative effect. So each time you roll over a link, the affected left hand margin items jump down the same distance again. This looks like a javascript issue (although affecting elements with CSS applied to them). So you might like to look at whatever is in the rollover that involves a pixel distance equal to the jump you're seeing in those left hand elements, and fix that. What happens if you take out the CSS, or bits of it? Do you still get the same effect? (I think I'd be tempted to scrap what's there and come at it afresh!) -Hugh Todd PS I'm not as dismissive of IE 5 as James is, much as it now irritates me. For its time it was a trailblazer in standards implementation, and it's still not bad for a browser that's been around for probably 6 years or so. Pity browsers don't just expire after a couple of years, isn't it? I'm not looking for a fix necessarily but just some ideas so that I can at least identify the problem or if anybody has seen anything similar and can give me some pointers. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
I will be out of the office on Wednesday, 6-16-04. If you need assistance please contact another Business Career Services team member at 217.333.2840. Thank you, Lezli Cline * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Must Read
This method uses GD, which unfortunately is the only bundled graphics library available in php. GD is fine for most purposes, it can be a little memory intensive at times though. The problem here is that the function imagegettfbbox() is sometimes unpredictable and may not get the correct height and width for the specified text, especially with overhanging letters like 'y','p' and 'q'. It is probably best to actually save the images out after the first load so the images are permanently as part of the file system. In the event that you need to change the text simply delete the images and let them reload. Marc. - Original Message - From: Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Must Read Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Dynamic Text Replacement http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dynatext/ The php image stuff is fair enough, but I've not been impressed with JavaScript Image Replacement as a technique - when I was evaluating it, I seemed to get the unstyled version a lot of the time in both Firefox and IE. Refreshing the page fixed the problem only some of the time. Overall, seemed a bit flaky for commercial use. -- Kay Smoljak http://developer.perthweb.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] IE:Mac clears float for no apparent reason
On Jun 16, 2004, at 9:58 am, Viktor Radnai wrote: I have redesigned a site from Dreamweaver table city to XHTML 1.0 strict. It's mostly gone well, but Internet Explorer 5.2 for Mac has a couple of issues. The one I'm trying to solve right now is apparent on this page: http://www.organicdance.com.au/organicdance/site/about It seems that the h2About the Facilitator/h2 clears the float set on the image above -- even if I set all margins and paddings to 0, set the H2's width to 200px *and* explicitly set clear: none on the H2. Bug in IE mac http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/float2misc/#fm002 P. ---/--- Philippe Wittenbergh now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/ code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/ IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Must Read
opinion Whatever the technique, using images for headings is, to me, backward, pixel perfect, print thinking. I visited the site - I only have a modem connection. I dind't like the way the headings disappeared, got replaced with image placeholders which slwly filled up with text that was there in the first place. Perhaps I am a lone voice in the desert, but why go back to 1990's style websites when we have CSS? Is it necessary to make people wait, just so you can show them the font YOU like (and they might not be able to see anyway)? /opinion Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Very odd behaviour on IE5 Mac. Any ideas?
It is a combination of javascript show/hide thingies and having absolute positioned blocks in the middle of the source code. A possible workaround is move the whole code block(s) for those submenus either to the very beginning of the page, or at the very end. Philippe On Jun 16, 2004, at 10:52 am, Hugh Todd wrote: Don't know if this will help at all, and I haven't looked closely at the code (I don't envy your job there at all!) but it does look as though whatever it is has a cumulative effect. So each time you roll over a link, the affected left hand margin items jump down the same distance again. This looks like a javascript issue (although affecting elements with CSS applied to them). So you might like to look at whatever is in the rollover that involves a pixel distance equal to the jump you're seeing in those left hand elements, and fix that. What happens if you take out the CSS, or bits of it? Do you still get the same effect? (I think I'd be tempted to scrap what's there and come at it afresh!) -Hugh Todd PS I'm not as dismissive of IE 5 as James is, much as it now irritates me. For its time it was a trailblazer in standards implementation, and it's still not bad for a browser that's been around for probably 6 years or so. Pity browsers don't just expire after a couple of years, isn't it? I'm not looking for a fix necessarily but just some ideas so that I can at least identify the problem or if anybody has seen anything similar and can give me some pointers. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * ---/--- Philippe Wittenbergh now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/ code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/ IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Must Read
I took a look at the example page, and in FireFox .9 and a broadband connection, it took a good couple of seconds before the images showed up properly. I was considering using some sort of image replacement for my new design of my journal, and I was highly considering this one. But I'm really not sure at this point. I really do agree with the idea of accessibility, and this seems to limit that. Jeremy - www.jezzjournal.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bert Doorn Sent: June 16, 2004 12:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Must Read opinion Whatever the technique, using images for headings is, to me, backward, pixel perfect, print thinking. I visited the site - I only have a modem connection. I dind't like the way the headings disappeared, got replaced with image placeholders which slwly filled up with text that was there in the first place. Perhaps I am a lone voice in the desert, but why go back to 1990's style websites when we have CSS? Is it necessary to make people wait, just so you can show them the font YOU like (and they might not be able to see anyway)? /opinion Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] file extensions
On Jun 12, 2004, at 6:27 PM, Christopher Kennon wrote: ... Interestingly, there really is little value to including file extensions such as gif, . jpg , .js, and so on. The browser does not rely on these values to render a page; rather it uses the MIME type header in the response. Knowing this, we might take: img src=images/SubHeaderAbout.gif> and shorten it to: img src=images/SubHeaderAbout> If combined with file renaming, this might produce: img src=/0/sA> ... However, the benefits of adding content negotiation far outweigh the costs. Clean URLs improve both security and portability of your sites, and even allow for adaptive content delivery whereby you can send different image types or languages to users based upon their browser's capabilities or system preferences! See Towards Next Generation URLs by the same authors for more information. I would hardly say that /0/sa is a clean URL. I think semantic URLs (which actually give you useable information about the file you are looking at) are more important than saving a few bytes in the url. And this is not even going into all the compatibility headaches this would pose, mentioned by others. /images/SubHeaderAbout.gif is a much better URL, although ideally you would be able to do without the extension. Unfortunately, many of the platforms we rely on don't work that way even OS X, the OS of choice for most designers, has reverted back to relying on extensions to determine filetype. So, for example, if the user wanted to save the image to disk, they wouldn't know how to open it. -Sam Walker
