[WSG] Test
Hi, The duplicate posts are coming from a Globe IT server in the Netherlands. I have blocked the IP address 217.148.170.240 So we'll see if this message comes back... Please don't reply to this post. Peter Firminger *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Netscape 9
In case you hadn't heard: http://www.avinio.blogspot.com/2007/06/netscape-navigator-90-released-first. html http://browser.netscape.com/ P *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] what cms system [CLOSED AGAIN]
Please keep CMS discussion to the CMS list. Log into the WSG website and adjust your mail list preferences please. This thread was closed a week ago. Peter From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of AlexorbitSent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:02 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] what cms system hey buddy, joomla its the first CMS to apply a valid xhtml+css plus Ajax admin functions... try do get it. http://joomla.orghere you can find a lot of cms www.opensourcecms.comcheers 2006/1/18, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: hello all,just a quick question,What one of these cms systems should i use?BTW im not a programmer.DrupalGeeklogMambo Open SourcePHP-Nuke phpWCMSphpWebSitePost-NukeSiteframeTYPO3XoopsThese are the options I can automatically install with a hosting package. Should i use one of these or try and setup text pattern on my own?-bestkvnmcwebn**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**-- Alex Freire de AquinoGerente de projetos Orbitcom consultoria em TecnologiaMiami Office [Orlando] +1 305 200-0736 Ext. 9157 UK London0870 068 1966São Paulo +55 11 6864 1898Mobile +55 11 8514 3628http://www.orbitcom.com.br [EMAIL PROTECTED]---
RE: [WSG] .htm include file into another .htm
This thread is really off topic so let's leave it here, but to correct something (sorry Lachlan)... This works on IIS as well, as long as it's a .shtml or .shtm file to tell IIS to parse it for any required processing (like an include) before serving it (unless your host doesn't allow them). ICYDK: IIS is Microsoft's Internet Information Server. I tested all three you mentioned and they all worked on my IIS server (Win2k). 1. !--#include virtual=/included.htm -- 2. !--#include virtual=included.htm -- 3. !--#include file=included.html -- P They're called server side includes and they work on Apache. They've got nothing to do with frames. I don't believe they're in any official standard, Apache is the only server I know of that implements them like that (though, I don't know much at all about other servers). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Re; Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
The much maligned br element is essential in our work. Sometimes we're not just doing poetry and addresses. Take for example the archive page of this very message (the one I'm replying to). http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=C69ACE78-BB9A-910B-E6CC1A4A59BDF099 How else would I accurately display Lachlan's example below without br. I don't agree that pre/pre is the answer because this may well force the page into breaking due to width. Pre is pretty powerful and can break a layout very quickly if something unexpected is forced into it. _ The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong: div paragraph 1br br paragraph 2br br paragraph 3 /div In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive brs, _ (here it is in case you don't want to look at the archive) _ The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:br / br / lt;divgt;br / paragraph 1lt;brgt;br / lt;brgt;br / paragraph 2lt;brgt;br / lt;brgt;br / paragraph 3br / lt;/divgt;br / br / In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive lt;brgt;s, br / _ I could replace br /br / with /pp (and I usually do... There was a reason I didn't in this case but I can't recall now) Remember, we are not marking this up by hand, we have to make sure it always works no matter what is thrown into it as content. I get the feeling that a lot of the time people focus too much on what is hand coded in static HTML pages (and therefore very predictable) when making assumptions like br is bad and even including hr as bad. Broaden your view to what may be churned out of a CMS or other server-based system (a web-mail interface etc.) A line break is semantic in my view. In the case of the aformentioned page, I believe it is very much like the poetry example. I'm expected to display the email the same as it was written (within the limitations of the page boundaries). In this context, any arguments? P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Vacation messages
Folks, If you are going away and need to set a vacation message, please remember to log into the WSG site and take yourself off the WSG and CMS mailing lists until you return. Otherwise each person that sends mail to the list gets your vacation message and in some cases they go to the list. As an incentive, I'll be deleting memberships that have set vacation messages without suspending themselves from the list(s). It's a self-serve system. Please don't write asking us to manage your membership for you. To change your list preferences, go to http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_edit.cfm and select No mail from the WSG list and No mail from the CMS list. Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] +612 49983388 +614 12932269 *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] The closed XML editor thread (Newcomers and Web Standards)
This closed discussion is quite welcome and appropriate to continue on the CMS list. If you are not on this list, log in to http://webstandardsgroup.org/ and follow the link Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions then select the Full CMS list radio button to participate. Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] +612 49983388 +614 12932269 *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] To the admins
Absolutely, way off and it started over 2 weeks ago. Stop now! P IMHO yours and therefor mine too, messages are OFF TOPIC right now. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] List server commands
Folks, Any of you that remember when this list server took commands via email, please forget it ever happened. The only way to edit your setting is to log in and set them on the website. Even if you do manage to get a command to work, the next time the system writes the subscription file from the member database (every time someone joins, leaves or edits their settings), it will revert to your membership settings. Go to http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_edit.cfm and use your email address and password to log in and select the lists and list-modes you require. If you don't remember your password, use the Forgot Password? form to retrieve it. Make sure you use the exact email address you initially subscribed with, this may be different to the one the lists are sent to. Please don't ask us to do it for you, it's a self-serve system. If you do have trouble, the address to ask for help is [EMAIL PROTECTED], not the list address. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] javascripts and standards [CLOSED]
Can we stop this discussion. The more we post the links to the list discussing it the more they end up in mail-archive.com. No it isn't an O'Reilly website. We all get it :) It's like a send this to everyone you know virus warning email, becomes the problem itself. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
But they may make your system vulnerable as they are not patched. There's a very good reason Microsoft doesn't publish these for developers or anyone else. Not at all recommended on any machine you care about. P Standalone versions of IE 4 and IE 5 are available at http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone. These will work even if you have a later version of IE installed. cheers, Geoff. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks
If you've gone against all sane advice and used CSS hacks then you knew exactly what you were in for with future browsers and potential problems. I don't want to see an M$ bitch session develop here while Microsoft are seemingly trying very hard do the right thing (at last). Obviously we have to wait and see what the final release does. At that point, I really hope you're (general) not going to charge your customers if you have to fix up bugs (hacks) that you knowingly induced into their websites if you didn't make it clear to them at the time that hacking may require rectification in the future. Sorry for the smug told you so, but many people including myself have made this very clear over the whole life of WSG. You only have yourself to blame. Peter previously comment=I'm really sick of html emails on this list It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act, just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for. /previously ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en) people write out addresses. It's part of the way we put text on a page, either with a pen, a thumbnail dipped in tar or hitting (carriage-)return (a hangover from typewriters, aka the Enter key) on a keyboard. It's even still known as CR (carriage-return) or LF (line-feed) or both (CRLF) within computer-based text terminology. I know this metaphor has flaws. On a typewriter (excepting the later word processing ones that were aware of the page size) you HAD to use a carriage return or you'd go off the page. Same with a pen, you stop at the edge of the paper and start a new line. But if I handwrite my address, I use line breaks regardless of the width of the page. No, it's not print (from a press or a pen) but we still need to follow the same basics for the written word. I'm not talking about fontography, colour, width of canvas (parchment/paper/screen) or positioning, these should be separated from the content. They are akin to calligraphy in handwriting and changing the ribbon colour (or ink) or the font on the piece of lead or the golf ball on a typewriter. I'm talking about the basics of the written word and they ARE semantic. As for what a screen reader does, we're now talking about the spoken word but I have never heard a screen reader say something like New line or Line-feed when it encounters a brso it still works (if I'm wrong about this please correct me). A single br to force a line break is ok in this context. brbr isn't (and never is). If you need two, mark it up correctly within an appropriate block-level element (container). P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: ADMIN Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
Big Thanks also to Thomas Marban from Austria who went to the trouble to set up a WE05 Wiki. http://futurefarm.net/we05/ Sorry, it only happened in the last 24 hours or so and we've been kinda busy here setting everything up. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: ADMIN Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? In the interests of not boring the 95% of the list who aren't going, I've set up a Discuss thread. So thread closed, please, and go to http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/22.htm to comment and see what all the other attendees are doing :) Lea ~ yes, yes, I know I should have done this before I posted myself. Mea culpa! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system [CLOSED]
There is a CMS list for this discussion. Please log into the WSG site and add it to your lists in your login details. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Announcing: Happy Clog!
For our members in the Netherlands (though I'm sure most of you are aware already)... http://kurafire.net/log/archive/2005/08/07/happy-clog Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ info@webboy.net +612 49983388 +614 12932269 *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Hi Paul, Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you sort out a design that uses tables for layout. Are we not being a bit classist? I don't think so. This is from the guidelines: --- We encourage people to ask for help on the list. One of the primary goals of this group is to help members move towards building sites that are standards compliant, so we do not want to stop members posting questions of this nature to the list - in fact, we encourage it! --- The site in question heavily uses tables, not just for simple layout issues like multiple columns. It has a lot of other issues like px based font sizes and even me with decent eyesight have difficulty reading some of the text with no option to scale it up (in IE). There are some convention issues in there. I strongly suggest thinking about naming conventions. Never make class or ID names the same as element names (e.g. this site uses .body). What I was trying to do was give the member possible reasons why no-one had answered the post (they may have off list but we don't know that). I looked at it at the time, hit the validator and closed the browser, I assume others did the same. Later (as no-one had answered) I looked again (in the code this time) and found a site that it will be very difficult to diagnose due to the way it has been built. I don't think I'm classist at all, if I go to help you with a problem and you haven't done the basics to make it easy for me to help you, I don't have the time spend wading through it. Who knows (without spending an hour on it) what effect the 125 errors has on the issue in question. If it was using tables to simply sort out a column issue or similar I wouldn't have mentioned it. I was trying to be gentle and still provide some level of help. I guess we missed that train. My apologies to Jeff as this has gone a bit deeper than I wanted it too and maybe I should have handled it all off-list. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Sydney WSG Meeting - Now Tuesday 30 August
Rather than organise two events in a week and have Lisa Herrod do her presentation twice, the September Sydney WSG meeting has been combined with the Web Essentials Free Briefing so it is now to be held on TUESDAY 30 August in the theatre at the Museum. Also note the earlier start time of 6:00pm for 6:30pm. Please see http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event37.cfm The upside is that there will be more in the presentations with the addition of the ever popular David Woodbridge and Robert Spriggs of the Royal Blind Society, the significantly better food and drinks are free, and you have a chance to win a free ticket to WE05! RSVP is essential - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Peter Firminger ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE question - user style sheets
You have a usability/accessibility issue with the onChange event on the style switcher. Take it out and add a button to submit it. Try NOT using your mouse and tab through to that form instead, then try and arrow down and you'll see the issue. Even something like http://esrab.webboy.net/toolkit.cfm P I'm using server-side scripts to switch Styles Sheets and keep user's preferences active: http://www.css-p.com/TNT/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] What not to do for colour blind users
For those that haven't seen it, the OzEmail page that James referred to is http://homesite.service.ozemail.com.au/sidenav.html/help/systemstatus To me the colour difference of the three ticks isn't distinguishable. I see a tick and think, the service is fine. Bad use of both colour and iconography. Any issue should have a cross rather than a tick to indicate a problem. They did add the alt text following my complaints though so at least I had some indication that the glass was half full. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Are we done now? Let me just say (as I wrote the offending line on the Max Design/Webboy sites) that I referred to ASP and not ASP.NET as not being a rapid development language (and I am right, it isn't... I used todo ASP sites). I really don't care what languages other people use, they all do the same thing essentially but some take less scripting than others. That par refers to whatWE do and whyWE use ColdFusion to do it(huge dev cost benefits for our customers). We turn down many job offers that specify PHP or ASP(.NET) as we could not quote competitively. That's just us. Not saying CF is better, just better for me. As for CF output, take a look at the source of http://www.frogsaustralia.net.au/- totally CF driven from a custom-built CMS and (I think) very neat source code. Now, so that this email isn't a total OT waste of time, a giggle... Take a look at what http://www.content.com.au/claim to do as a businessand then look at the source code of the pages. Notone line of text to be seen! Not even a descriptive page title or any metadata whatsoever. I love it! No comments on this please, it isn't worth discussing. We can just feel superior in our collective wisdom. P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslistSent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:20 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Well no, what you say now isnt wrong but what you said before certainly was.Before you basically implied the cfm created bad markup and now you say it's the developer which is what it should be." I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance"Thats not true at all, not even close.But I totally agree that it's all in how the developer does that makes it go :) From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:11 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Er, wwwhat?? If you use the controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites into existence then no, it wont validate, but then I suspect it wont validate in any language. At the end of the day it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which makes a language produce sloppy code. Explain to me how that is wrong. W From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslistSent: 23 July 2005 18:27To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what?thats a big load of BS!what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code?if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code).coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages.Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;)most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to "unmangle" what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!!"The code I have seen being churned out lookslike it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. "then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace."ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging)." From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionI think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect toweb standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out lookslike it has gone
RE: SPAM: RE: [WSG] Longhorn Avalon - seismic shift for web standards?
Now cut that out (smile or no smile)! I use Windows machines exclusively and prefer to browse using IE as that's what my main audience uses. I pick up many things that Russ on his non Win/IE combination misses (not that he doesn't check but they are not his defaults and things do slip through). I'll check on the boutique browsers but until one of them gains the market share, IE is the default target. Keep in mind that I am an application developer, not a designer so I care little about the 'look', that's for the designer to look after. I am a huge standards advocate, but I'm also a realist that has real clients with real audiences. The previous comment was a good one. But, if you're in the business of building web apps that target a specific platform.. :) This reference to web applications could mean an Intranet Application (known audience technology) for booking resources, filling in leave applications, database editing, phone lists etc. or a CMS Administration console or an online banking tool where you can specify (or test for) a specific user_agent and design a really great application in that framework. I often limit CMS Administration consoles to IE as I may well use an inline HTML editor (an Ektron one for example) that invokes a dll on the client. In my experience this is a lot more stable than Java applets and other stuff that will allow stand-alone (non operating system-integrated) browsers to use them. Peter hmmmI smell Troll... You don't work for Microsoft do you David? :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] help or web standards group?
I totally concur with Lea (which happens with amazing regularity). We have discussed this matter in the past (along with creating online fora to move some of the newbie stuff off the list) but the general consensus was that this was and still is the best way to do it to cover all levels. If you'd like to use a forum environment, take a look at the stuff over at Port80 in Perth. http://www.port80.asn.au/forums/ Let's not complain about the lower-end traffic if we're not injecting the higher-end topics ourselves. So, let's talk about XML/XSLT, SVG, what's happening with AJAX etc. (see http://www.w3.org/2005/07/05-tagmem-minutes.html#item03 for a thought starter, at least to see some of the W3 process on emergence). P I like the concept, but my experience of multiple lists for the one group is that posts are constantly made on the 'wrong' list, driving everyone mad, or some of the lists simply aren't used - look at this group. Demand drove the creation of the CMS list, but its traffic is minimal. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Image Thumnail Advice [THREAD CLOSED]
Ok, enough on that thanks. This is a 'PhotoShop how to'rather thana Web Standards discussion. Peter
RE: [WSG] Survey of Accessible Websites in New Zealand and Australia
Please please send these to the address mentioned ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) and not to the list. Bruce stated that he will post the report to the list when completed so we don't need to see your responses. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Will HTML be nicer to PHP than XHTML? [ADMIN]
We're pushing the OT limits with this thread. I understand it's importance to some people but PHP is NOT a standard and we don't want to go too much further into it here. Many list members don't use PHP and this is just noise to them. I'm not closing the thread but please limit your posts on this topic to only crucial information that hasn't been said before. If you move the thread to the CMS list you can go for it as hard as you like without bothering designers and others that have no interest. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: SPAM: RE: [WSG] Site check with a problem and something new
Hmmm... I don't have a certain answer, but I have a questions; Why are you trying to get your website to work on IE on a Mac?? (OS9)?? You know that IE on a mac has been ditched in the new OSX (Tiger). And Safari is the dominent Browser. You should have a message appear on your site for any users that are using MAC IE that says Download Firefox or Use Safari, don't use this piece of junk browser Just my 2 pence. It's a fair comment. Im sure others agree. Absolutely not, you should be making your site accessible to everyone regardless of which browser/os they use and if you can't make it work, make sure it degrades gracefully. Messages saying anything like that are entirely what web standards are against. Get FireBug? Get censored... Don't you dare tell me what browser to use. would be my answer and you'd lose a customer. It may be okay for blogs and personal sites but many of us do real business websites and there are still people with old browsers that have money to spend or need access to information (be it Government or any other information). If we take your example above, why not tell everyone not using IE 6 on Windows to go away and get the dominant browser/os? The question was a perfectly legitimate one. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WSG Meetings for the rest of us
Sorry folks been busy so this has gone unanswered so far by the listkeepers. First of all, we just hit 2000 members! That is a moving target though and it may take a week to stabilise over that figure. Also, Let me take the time to thank our Core group of members, the people that run the meetings and helped set up WSG in the early days. They do a heap of work in their own areas and keep a close eye on the list and it's many little trip-ups. Be nice to them, they're working hard for you and get nothing but my heartfelt thanks in return. Want to be a WSG core member? Start a meeting group! Which brings me back to the topic. Whenever I ask about setting up meetings (outside Australia) I get very little response, so I don't initiate anything any more. It's entirely up to you to start the process. So here's what you have to do. Log in to the members section of the WSG site and scroll down. Follow the link City totals http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_view.cfm#totals Look for your city and those nearby. Remember, we generally have no idea about your geography (and whether Boston and Cambridge MA are close enough to each other for example). You may want to scroll up and look in the list above that as that may be easier to see everyone in your area. Side note: This is why we ask you to be general about your area/city in your login details... Good time to check what others in your area have done and change yours to the most common format, London people I particularly mean you. The list is sorted by Country, State, City. If there are more than 8 people near you, you have a chance (and by no means a guarantee) of setting up a regular meeting. We actually find 20 is about the right number. See suggested list below. Let Russ and I know on info@webboy.net that YOU are interested in being a group organiser, and that you have some ideas about a venue (preferably free, with internet access and a projector), and what other cities in the list are in close proximity and we will contact (BCC) the members in those areas directly asking if they are interested and if we can give their address to YOU the proposed organiser. You will probably need to have two organisers so the second may also come out of that list. In Australia, Russ and I (and sometimes John Allsopp) try very hard to make an appearance at the first meeting to help out (as we are doing in Perth this month and hopefully very soon in Canberra) but off-shore it's a little difficult. We will try our best to help. We have had some interest in Austin TX and Sacramento CA but nothing has come of them yet (we need to give Sacramento more time though, it was very recent). Here's what I think are worth looking at (and again there may be well more in these areas listed under different suburb names etc.): 42 - London England - UK (Really no excuses here! Someone?) 31 - Perth WA - Australia (22nd June! Just 11 sleeps now... AND a weekend for me in Margaret River) 25 - Canberra ACT - Australia (working on it and will probably be daytime meetings for Gov audience) 18 - Chicago IL - USA 16 - San Francisco CA - USA 15 - Toronto Ontario - Canada (Come on Toronto... Beat the USA to the 1st Nth American meeting) 14 - New York NY - USA (and there are more if you take in Brooklyn etc.) 13 - Copenhagen - Denmark 13 - Brighton East Sussex - UK 12 - Adelaide SA - Australia 12 - Dallas TX - USA 11 - Auckland - New Zealand 11 - Washington DC/VA/MD - USA 10 - Chennai Tamil Nadu - India 10 - Boston MA - USA 10 - Portland OR - USA 10 - Sacramento CA - USA (working on it) 10 - Seattle WA - USA 9 - Manchester Lancashire - UK 9 - Rio de Janeiro - Brasil 8 - Vancouver British Columbia - Canada 8 - Stockholm - Sweden 8 - Houston TX - USA 8 - Los Angeles CA - USA 8 - Philadelphia PA - USA I don't believe you can pull it off at all with less than 8 but check the list, I may have missed something obvious. On the question of video... It takes a lot of time to edit a presentation (to get screenshots in etc) and then a lot of bandwidth to serve them up. For live streaming, you'll need good bandwidth at the venue. We don't have that luxury. There is also the issue of IP for the presenter (though I think that most would probably agree to it), and then there is accessibility, transcriptions etc. as previously mentioned on the list. I would estimate 4-8 hours to produce a 40 min presentation (without captions) that would end up at 160-400mb. I really don't have time so I'm afraid that without significant corporate sponsorship to hire someone or someone else doing it voluntarily, this isn't likely (at least for Sydney). Other cities may prove me wrong, I know our very competitive friends in Brisbane were looking into it. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help
[WSG] RE: Possible Virus
Yeah thanks, we know. No need to repost it or send it to us. I'm trying to find a solution that won't screw up a lot of member's filters. Please just delete these if they continue. A word of advice. NEVER open any attachment from this list. We don't allow attachments (it's in the guidelines) so any attachment is probably a virus. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] A test
I have just blacklisted the [EMAIL PROTECTED] address and this is to check that the list actually still works (as that is the list owner account). Sorry, no other way to test it and this is the only solution I can think of without changing the address it's sent from which may affect the filters people use. Fingers crossed! Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ info@webboy.net +612 49983388 +614 12932269 *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] problem with utf-8 page encoding
Hi Vaska,
You really need to give us the URL of the page that this occurs
onso others can test it.
We also need to know os/ver and browser/ver it occurs on to
emulate it.
Opening it as
a local file is not a good test (unless the page is destined for a CD-ROM or
Kiosk). These things can get complicated by the charset the server sends in the
request header as well as the font specified in the CSS and what fonts are
installed on your machine etc.Thus, the code snippet below really doesn't tell us
much.
Please try a
version of your page in valid HTML 4.01 Transitional and see if the behaviour is
the same. As you're not using an XML prologue (like ?xml version="1.0"
encoding="utf-8"? ) in your XHTML page I wonder if the behaviouris an
xml parser thing. May be way off with that as well. Just a
thought.
Unicode isn't
a simple fix-all solution. It makes it easy for simple things like European
keyboard inputs (French, German, Spanish etc.) but once you get to the non-latin
charsets it gets difficult.I don't believe (though I haven't read the docs
for a while now) that all the characters required for a universal solution are
included in UTF-8. From (distant) memory you have to go to something like UTF-16
or UTF-32 to get anywhere near the number of characters required for all
languages and I don't know that browser support is very good with those and I
don't think they were even intended for web use.
Don't believe
me though as I am certainly not an expert in the field and I am very rusty in my
recollection, go and read the specs for yourself in your own context. There
aremyriad resources on this subject online. Some of them listed in http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat18.cfm
Bottom line
is that if you're doing Arabic or Chinese or Koreanetc.
characters,you may still need to be conservative and do it in a
basic way like http://www.gt.nsw.gov.au/information/chinese.htmusing
something specific like meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=big5" lang="zh" and maybe (I have been led to believe) suggest a
decent default font family for this charset.
No need to apologise
about using tables. It really bugs me that "tables" have such a bad name round
here that people feel they have to apologise even when using them correctly.
Yes, you'll probably be ridiculed if you use them for page layout but don't feel
even the slightest bit bad about using them for their intended
purpose.
Peter
This
is my header...!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0
Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"html
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang='en'
lang='en'headtitlePage
title/titlemeta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8" /td width='60%' class='cell-doc'
xml:lang='zh' lang='zh'~{6(~} ~{;[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~{4N~}~{Q!Pc~}/td
RE: [WSG] Regarding foreign languages
Hi Vaska, Am I allowed to ask about non-CSS things here? WSG is not just a CSS list. Your question is entirely appropriate as it is dealing with firm Web Standards. In particular, I'm trying to deal with how to handle inputs of Chinese characters via some forms. What I'm wondering is... One thing you need to watch is what the application or web server is expecting from the form. In ColdFusion MX there are times when you have to tell the ColdFusion server to expect a certain encoding from form posts. E.g. cfscriptsetencoding(form, UTF-8);/cfscript I don't know whether PHP and other server-side languages have this need or whether they work it out themselves. Not that I want to start that discussion here (as server-side technology is off topic) but as a concept, it may well be part of the problem and I just wanted to add it to your debug process. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified advert solution [MOVE TO CMS LIST]
This is really a topic for the CMS list. Please carry on the conversation there. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Nicol Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:09 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified advert solution Hello everyone, I am seraching for a standards-compliant classified ad solution. The best non-compliant solution I've found is this: http://www.geodesicsolutions.com/products/classifieds/classifi eds_enterprise.htm Does anyone know of a standards-compliant solution that is comparable to this? Cheers David ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CMS list archive?
Hi tee, As you've found both lists are bundled together in the local archive, but the CMS list is separate in mail-archive.com (which Russ Weakley redesigned for them a while back btw): http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/ Or (a little easier to remember) http://www.mail-archive.com/cms@webstandardsgroup.org/ Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] CMS list archive? Hi Russ or Peter, Where can I get to CMS list archive on WSG website? I don't see it in mail-archive.com. I saw a couple of thread on http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm after logged in, but it's hard to find related topic that I am interested in. It mix with WSG thread. Regards, tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] mambo and web standards [MOVED TO CMS]
Absolutely correct Lawrence. I (as a CMS developer) understand very well the need for standards compliant systems and a place to discuss the issues. That is why encourage anyone that is interested (and sadly, many developers are not) to join and use the WSG-CMS list. Just log in to http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/ and select it from the mail lists in your email preferences. Please move this thread to that list for any further discussion so that those who are not interested don't need to see the traffic, that is indeed off-topic, on the mail WSG list. Regards, Peter It'd be better to discuss in depth on the WSG-CMS list (which I'm also on), but suffice to say web standards is an aim of Mambo.. What that aim comprimises and how well it achieves it is more appropriate for the WSG-CMS list. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Online payments [CLOSED]
Yeah WAY OT, Please respond to Erwin off list. This list only covers web standards, if the brief was bigger than that it would explode and become unusable. There are no web standards involved in server-side technologies and tasks like card processing. We have a CMS list to discuss the output of these types of systems and how to make them standards compliant. If this had been asked on the CMS list I wouldn't have minded a bit. Erwin, I suggest you subscribe to it and ask the question there. Log into http://webstandardsgroup.org/members/ and change your email preferences to receive that list. If you want to discuss this issue (the thread closure) please write to info@webboy.net and NOT the list. I will unsubscribe anyone discussing it on list. It's not negotiable! We're trying to keep the noise down and this is noise. The Guidelines (that you all agreed to on joining) cover this very clearly. What the list covers and does not cover The mail list covers any topic associated with web standards including: Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML, CSS, DOM, UAAG, RDF, XML Discussing best practice in these technologies Announcements of tools that can help build standards compliant sites Accessibility and semantically correct markup W3C specifications, drafts and proposals Useful resources that promote knowledge in Web Standards Site reviews and critiques Assistance with aspects of web standards such as site checking, layout issues etc. The mail list does not cover: Non-Web Standards related issues and support Discussion of server-side scripting beyond that directly involved with Web Standards Discussion of content management/web publishing system issues beyond those directly involved with Web Standards (there is a CMS list for that purpose, see the resources section for details) Detailed software support such as using a browser, installing a server, installing any tools etc. Product and service advertisements of a purely commercial nature Employment opportunities Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erwin Heiser Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 4:39 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM: [WSG] Online payments Hi all, Sorry if this is slightly OT. I¹m starting a website for a hotel and they would like to implement some kind of on-line reservation system with possible credit card payments. Since I have never done something like this before, are there any good (commercial or not) PHP-solutions available for this? Could I do this myself or do I have to call in a programmer? Any and all suggestions welcome... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Privacy Statements - THREAD CLOSED
Goodbye! P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; russ - maxdesign Cc: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Privacy Statements - THREAD CLOSED Umm, exactly what planet are you on? Can you supply a valid reason why this is not something that should be either in or out of the standards (best practices) for site design? Quoting russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]: THREAD CLOSED Please reply to Leigh off-list. This is definitely off-topic - has nothing to do with web standards. If you have a problem with the closing of this thread, please do not post to the list. Instead, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Russ Hi all what are the pro's and cons of offering a privacy statement? a lot of people think a site looks more legit with a privacy statement, do you agree? leigh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Juicy Studio offline [CLOSED]
Way OT now folks. Please send suggestions to Gez at the email address mentioned on the page (as Douglas correctly asked you to do). P Visit his site for more information about the situation and how to contact him with suggestions. http://juicystudio.com/ Thank you! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS
quote There is nothing wrong with any of the above except they're being touted by...guess who?...people who offer web design services specializing in...guess what?...Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS. These are simply tools. Remember, nobody gets excited about the tools used to build a house (Please tell me what brand of hammers you used!). People get excited about how the house looks and performs. /quote It's got nothing what-so-ever to do with the brand of hammer used, it's to do with the material. You can build a perfectly good house using asbestos products but why would you when they are proven to be bad. I don't tell anyone that a standards-based design will make more money than a table layout, but there are significant savings in building, maintaining and serving a standards based website. Whether the developer passes these savings onto the client or not is a matter often discussed. We do and we get penalised for it often by people thinking our quotes are too cheap to be realistic. I've never liked this guy much anyway. His domain name is entirely appropriate for the site it holds. P Interesting thoughts from Vincent Flanders: http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/biggest-web-design-mistakes-in-2004.html Go to number 3: Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS What do you think? Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS
Further more (this rubbish by or about people justifying their inability to do a job right really annoys me). A person developing a website is expected to produce a product that serves HTML or XHTML and through that some other files (images, stylesheets etc.) to a browser. Lets just go with the HTML for now. Doesn't matter what server-side scripting used or anything, just the output to the browser. If that code is not valid HTML, then they simply haven't done their job. Lets take an example kids. Russ loves to give me analogies so here's one right back at you buddy. We all know, at least vaguely, what written music looks like. There are 5 lines (and occasionally others briefly written above or below those) and there are documented symbols for key, tempo and of course the notes. Lets say we now draw 6 lines, don't put the key it's to be played in and just use x to mark the notes instead of the correct symbols that denote the duration of each note. It's great... I can do it in an email as plain text. -- x --x--- x x --x---x---x--- x x x x -- -- -- But it aint music! The poor violinist trying to make sense of it is going to have a lot of trouble interpreting it. They may decide to ignore the bottom line and try to play each x as a note but they have no sense of the duration of the notes, the key it was designed for or the speed at which they should play it. Yes standards are important. If that guy built a house, I wouldn't be buying it. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stevio Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:49 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS Interesting thoughts from Vincent Flanders: http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/biggest-web-design-mistakes-in -2004.html Go to number 3: Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS What do you think? Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.18 - Release Date: 19/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Adobe Buys Macromedia [CLOSED and Moved to Blog]
Oh, and sorry...this is fairly off topic. Apologies... Patrick Yes I was thinking the same. Very interesting news with on-topic repercussions down the track but not really a valid discussion point here and now. However, I have set up a page in the WSG Blog for this discussion... http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/20.htm P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Housekeeping [ADMIN]
Hi, Getting a few complaints lately about useless traffic and untrimmed posts. If your answer to a post is Looks fine on mine or Thanks for the help then please post it directly to the sender rather than the list. 1600+ other people really don't need to see it. I can't tell you how on every mail client but as far as I know you can get the posters direct address from the From address. In Outlook it is shown as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Peter Firminger [EMAIL PROTECTED] and by double clicking Peter Firminger you are given the address in a dialogue box to copy. The alternative is for me to set the list to Reply to sender instead of Reply to list but that would be more painful for everyone replying and would mean some of the great advice didn't get to everyone so please think about it when replying. Please trim all previous unrelated material (including the WSG footer and peoples signatures) from a post when answering. Just keep what is absolutely necessary for context. Please try and remember to send plain text emails rather than HTML emails to the list. For those that keep asking, to unsubscribe (delete your membership) log in to http://webstandardsgroup.org/ and use the link Unsubscribe - Delete Membership. If you abandon your login email address (change jobs etc.) please delete your membership and resubscribe under your new address. Please don't write to me asking to unsubscribe you. To change which lists you are on (WSG, CMS and their digest versions) use the link Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions. Use this option when you are going on leave (vacation) and are setting a Vacation Message and set both lists to No Mail. You will still get infrequent messages from the Announce list which all members are subscribed to. If you stop getting WSG mail it is likely that your emails have been bouncing and we have set you to No Mail, you may see an error message in the Note to member field. Please deal with the cause of the error before resubscribing to the list. The digest versions (in a lot of mail clients) suck. We know and there's nothing we can do about it at this stage. If you use SpamArrest to filter your emails, please use another email address for your WSG membership. SpamArrest are proven spammers and you DO NOT have the right to put other people's email addresses into their database. You may agree to their Terms of Service but I don't and you are violating my privacy by giving them my address. Please reply off-list if you really need to, these are not topics for open discussion that will add to the traffic. Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ info@webboy.net +612 49983388 +614 12932269 *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Page views per month, peak rates in an hour [CLOSED]
Way off topic... Please reply to Siggy off list. Listdad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sigurd Magnusson Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:38 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM: [WSG] Page views per month, peak rates in an hour Untitled DocumentHi all, A little off-topic, but after a look around the internet I've come up blank: I'm trying to lump the popularity of websites into groups based on the total number of page views per month, and also learn the peak rate of page views per hour. E.g. a standard banking website in New Zealand might recieve 15 million page views per month, which is around 27,000 page views an hour (if you decided 6 hours a night were idle), but in lunch times, that rate might be more like 50,000, etc. I imagine in New Zealand it would be groups such as 10M+, 1-10M, 50k-1M that would be--it would be interesting to learn the quantity and general examples of websites in those categories. Finally, it would be useful to learn how much higher than average the 'peak hour' is. Does anyone have resources or information on this; Australiasian would be most useful but other areas would atleast give me ideas! Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CMS List
You are using them old command method to subscribe and this has been disabled. Log into the WSG site and change your email prefs to include the CMS list. P I know this might be slightly off toic, but the CMS listserv on WSG won't allow me to subscribe: Sorry, the mailing list cms@webstandardsgroup.org does not allow subscriptions. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] 2 questions: antispam code Doc type...
Hi Devendra, Character Encoding mismatch! The character encoding specified in the HTTP header (utf-8) is different from the value in the meta element (iso-8859-1). I will use the value from the HTTP header (utf-8) for this validation. ColdFusionMX serves a character encoding in the http header that is UTF-8 by default (silly decision by Macromedia really). To change this put the following CF code in your Application.cfm file (or in the document itself if you don't use Application.cfm). cfheader name=Content-Type value=text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm sending this to the list because it relates directly to validation of ColdFusion applications that use anything apart from UTF-8 as a charset in the page metadata and may help others as well. So while I'm here I'll offer the method I use nowadays for email links. Mine are all ColdFusion but the process should work for any decent server-side language. Consider setting up a database table with 3 fields. Uid, email and name and put all the contacts you require for email links in there. Then create a form page like /email.cfm and make the links something like: a href=/email.cfm?uid=7F81CF11-A34F-41D5-53FFD89A1D579563Email Some Person/a On that form, you could query the database to get the name of the email contact so that the user is confident they are not just on a general contact form. Do some error trapping here to make sure that you actually have a contact with that UID. If yes, give them a form, if no, maybe say 'Sorry no user matches your request' and give them a generic form to contact the general email address. On submission of that form, use the UID to query the database and get the email address for your CFMAIL tag (or the php/whatever equivalent). The email address is never exposed on the pages, not even in a hidden form field in the source, and they can't guess the UIDs to automate it. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] [ADMIN] Site review requests and new Brisbane organiser
Hi all, When asking for site reviews please A) put at least the client name or domain name (not the full path if it's deeper, and no need for http:// or www.) in the title so that the subject lines are a little easier to separate and B) put your email address in the message for those that don't know how to get it from the message easily. e.g. Site review: widgets.com Site review: Widgets Inc When answering a site review post, if you're just saying something like Hey nice colo(u)rs, didn't like the widget then please consider the rest of the list and send it directly to the person that sent it. If you do go into a specific issue that others will learn from then please feel free to answer to the list. Not trying to squash discussion and help, just trying to cut down on traffic that isn't really of any use to anyone else. While I'm here I'd like to welcome Avril Bowie to the WSG Core team. Avril will be sharing the WSG Brisbane duties with Lea de Groot. Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ info@webboy.net +612 49983388 +614 12932269 *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] FW: Site review
Hi James,
As the page http://www.organicexpo.com.au/exhibitors/index.php validates as
XHTML 1.0 Strict, this may not mean anything but I have had errors or
warnings from validators about white space in html comments in the past.
!--comment-- wasn't acceptable as there needed to be a space either inside
the delimiters (--) as in
!-- comment --. Seems this has been changed in the specs, or at least the
validators. I would still suggest doing it that way anyway. This also means
that ColdFusion comments !--- comment --- should not really be used on
pages that are not parsed by ColdFusion (removing them from the source).
The links without hrefs in the footer are inaccessible.
a onclick=javascript:newWindow('../articles/terms.php')terms and
conditions/a
Without JavaScript (many smartphones etc. simply don't have it), this won't
work and they can't read your terms. A potential legal issue. The code we
use (in HTML and only when we really need to) is:
a href=page.htm target=targetname onClick=window.open('',
'targetname','toolbar=0,location=0,directories=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollba
rs=auto,resizable=0,width=310,height=300') title=Link text (opens in a new
window)Link text/a
This is very stable code that works everywhere.
So, either don't use XHTML if you want accessible links to popup windows
(due to the lack of the target attribute) or don't use popup windows at all,
loading the terms and conditions and privacy policy in the full window. The
latter is obviously preferable as people using screen readers without the
aid of vision may not know the new window has opened and get completely lost
on a page with no navigation aids.
Just my thoughts...
P
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RE: [WSG] Tentative validation
You have a mixed doctype, the declaration says strict but the uri points to the transitional dtd. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 11:28 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Tentative validation Thanks I added a content type in my header but it is telling me the issue lies with this line: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; and I should change it to the new xhtml 1.1 transitional doctype, how does that doctype differ from what I am using, besides replacing Strict with Transitional. Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Isac Backlund Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Tentative validation Paul skrev: When I am validating I always seem to only tentatively validate ( i.e http://www.speakupnow.ca/wu/audiovideo.php ) , is there something I can add to my code to make it fully validate? Paul Hi. Try adding at content-type meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 mv icaaq ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Re: XHTML Strict alternative to ol start=11
Can I just offer an opinion here. When thinking of semantics it sometimes helps to go back 20 years and use pen and paper. If you were writing a big list (numbering each item) in a small notepad you would, on successive pages, keep the numbering going. So on the second page, the first item may be number 11. Putting that into a search result context, the 500 results from a search are one list. If you are kind enough to break that into pages, the list is still the same one so starting the list on the second page from record 11 and numbering it that way is, in my view, correct. Now, depending on how you do it you can only make that page only available to someone that already saw the first page (using form method post) however most of us have search results that can be linked to (using method get in a form or dynamically writing a link with a query string). E.g. http://www.seaslugforum.net/list.cfm?startrow=31 You'll note the text Messages 31 to 60 of 8740 to put the list in context. I see no problem with this. In fact if the list on the second page started at 1 I think it would be more confusing. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS / JavaScript Problem
Hi Jacobus,
You'll need to resend this to the list as it was blocked and only sent to me
because you had a read receipt request on it.
Regards,
Peter
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacobus van Niekerk
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 5:33 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] CSS / JavaScript Problem
Anybody have a solution for the following:
I have a default style for a element:
#s1 {height: 215px;}
In some of the pages I need to update this value to auto, and I use
!important setting to enforce this, via a updates.css file:
#s1 {height: auto !important;}
Now here is the problem:
I now have to look at 2 elements, via JavaScript, in the doc,
check which
has the highest high value and assign that value to both
elements. No matter
what value I assign to both elements, the previous !important setting
overrides the new values.
Is there any way I can override the !important setting via JavaScript?
I need a solution quite urgent, and will keep digging into
this myself, but
if anybody knows how, I would really appreciate this.
Thanks in advance!
Kind Regards
Jacobus van Niekerk
Creative Consultant
web: http://www.catics.com/ | http://www.freelancecontractors.com
tel: + 27 21 982 7805
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.4 - Release Date: 2005/01/25
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RE: [WSG] Is sending abusive spam doing standards good or harm?
Hi all, If you have any specific concerns please forward them to info@webboy.net or [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll just mention that you can't write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] as it's a closed list and you'll be rejected posting to it unless you are subscribed. Sorry Mark :( I am working on another form of communication for list admin or core group contact to take some pressure off info@webboy.net which is also our business address. I'll let you know when I come up with something. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG Announce] ADMIN: Changes to WSG login system
This is a one-way list for WSG Announcements Hi everyone. You will probably get this message twice as I am cross posting to two lists to make sure you all see it (in case some spam filtering loses the post from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and if you don't get the post with [WSG Announce] in the subject please adjust your settings to receive it). I have made significant changes to the WSG login system. In making these changes I tried very hard to keep all subscriptions the same as they were (including people that asked me to suspend them while on vacation) but there is a chance that something may have gone wrong so please be kind and either fix up your subscription by logging in and selecting Edit your login details or let me know if there is something wrong that you can't fix. If you encounter any errors on the site please let me know telling me what you did to get the error and please also send the error message text. There are now three WSG lists. [WSG Announce] A new one-way list that everyone is subscribed to. [WSG] The main discussion list. [WSG CMS] The content management list. The [WSG Announce] is compulsory and is based on your login email. We will use this for announcements of various kinds including Russ's Links for light reading as suggested by many people in the recent survey. Only we can post to it so the traffic will be very light. The reason for it is so that we could give you the option not to receive the main list and still have contact with you. This was requested by many members. The [WSG] main list (also available in a digest version) is now optional and you can change the address that this is sent to (to differ from your login email). The [WSG CMS] list (also available in a digest version) is also now an option when you log into the WSG site and select Edit your login details. You still can't change your Login Email (which is also used for the [WSG Announce] list) but you can change the address that the other two lists are sent to and you can select full, digest or no mail from the other two lists whenever you like. This means that you can suspend yourself from the list when going on vacation etc. If you requested to be suspended manually by us over the new year period, when you return you can log in and resurrect your account yourself. A few things to note. All previous instructions about changing to digest mode or subscribing to the CMS list are now superseded. The list server no longer takes commands to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only way to change modes, subscribe or unsubscribe is via editing your login details. Please take a moment to log in and look at your details. While doing this, please make sure your City is relevant to your general area. EG: If you live in a suburb close to Washington DC then put Washington DC as your city as we use this info to see where we have enough people to start a meeting group. We don't know the geography of most places so we may not know that Cambridge MA is a short distance from Boston MA etc. Please be general about it. When you update your details, the confirming email now tells you which lists you are subscribed to (and the address they are subscribed under). REMEMBER: If you change the address the lists are sent to you must post to the list from that address or it will be rejected. I will be looking at all the bouncing accounts from the list and setting them to no mail over the next few days. I'll also be looking closely at the bounces I get from this post and deleting anyone with fatal errors. If you want to change your login email address, then you still need to log in, unsubscribe and re-subscribe with the new address. At this point there is no confirmation process for the new list address field but I will be implementing one in the near future. This will mean that when you change the List address you will be temporarily unsubscribed from the lists until you respond to a confirmation email (follow a link in the email), the same as when you join. This is A) for making sure bounces are minimised because of typos and B) making sure that it is your address. We are now looking at redesigning the WSG site. This will change the look, make the structure more semantically correct, change the way the resources section is presented and add a new Jobs section for advertising (standards related) positions vacant. Please do not respond to the WSG list. Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] to discuss anything in this email. Regards, Peter Firminger The announce list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
[WSG] ADMIN: Changes to WSG login system
Hi everyone. You will probably get this message twice as I am cross posting to two lists to make sure you all see it (in case some spam filtering loses the post from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and if you don't get the post with [WSG Announce] in the subject please adjust your settings to receive it). I have made significant changes to the WSG login system. In making these changes I tried very hard to keep all subscriptions the same as they were (including people that asked me to suspend them while on vacation) but there is a chance that something may have gone wrong so please be kind and either fix up your subscription by logging in and selecting Edit your login details or let me know if there is something wrong that you can't fix. If you encounter any errors on the site please let me know telling me what you did to get the error and please also send the error message text. There are now three WSG lists. [WSG Announce] A new one-way list that everyone is subscribed to. [WSG] The main discussion list. [WSG CMS] The content management list. The [WSG Announce] is compulsory and is based on your login email. We will use this for announcements of various kinds including Russ's Links for light reading as suggested by many people in the recent survey. Only we can post to it so the traffic will be very light. The reason for it is so that we could give you the option not to receive the main list and still have contact with you. This was requested by many members. The [WSG] main list (also available in a digest version) is now optional and you can change the address that this is sent to (to differ from your login email). The [WSG CMS] list (also available in a digest version) is also now an option when you log into the WSG site and select Edit your login details. You still can't change your Login Email (which is also used for the [WSG Announce] list) but you can change the address that the other two lists are sent to and you can select full, digest or no mail from the other two lists whenever you like. This means that you can suspend yourself from the list when going on vacation etc. If you requested to be suspended manually by us over the new year period, when you return you can log in and resurrect your account yourself. A few things to note. All previous instructions about changing to digest mode or subscribing to the CMS list are now superseded. The list server no longer takes commands to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only way to change modes, subscribe or unsubscribe is via editing your login details. Please take a moment to log in and look at your details. While doing this, please make sure your City is relevant to your general area. EG: If you live in a suburb close to Washington DC then put Washington DC as your city as we use this info to see where we have enough people to start a meeting group. We don't know the geography of most places so we may not know that Cambridge MA is a short distance from Boston MA etc. Please be general about it. When you update your details, the confirming email now tells you which lists you are subscribed to (and the address they are subscribed under). REMEMBER: If you change the address the lists are sent to you must post to the list from that address or it will be rejected. I will be looking at all the bouncing accounts from the list and setting them to no mail over the next few days. I'll also be looking closely at the bounces I get from this post and deleting anyone with fatal errors. If you want to change your login email address, then you still need to log in, unsubscribe and re-subscribe with the new address. At this point there is no confirmation process for the new list address field but I will be implementing one in the near future. This will mean that when you change the List address you will be temporarily unsubscribed from the lists until you respond to a confirmation email (follow a link in the email), the same as when you join. This is A) for making sure bounces are minimised because of typos and B) making sure that it is your address. We are now looking at redesigning the WSG site. This will change the look, make the structure more semantically correct, change the way the resources section is presented and add a new Jobs section for advertising (standards related) positions vacant. Please do not respond to the WSG list. Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] to discuss anything in this email. Regards, Peter Firminger ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] PHP script [ADMIN] THREAD CLOSED
Yeah thanks Warren, but we'll look after the traffic control please. Your post just adds to the noise. Please reply to Angus off list about his PHP issues. PHP is not a web standard and is not for discussion here. The guidelines do point this out. P Pretty off topic. WP ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] [ADMIN] Listdad rave (please don't reply on list)
Hey list, A number of things to cover. Please read on. New Zealand: I am stunned by the RSVPs for the upcoming meeting in Wellington. By my reckoning, over 50 people will attend next Thursday evening and it's their first meeting. You Kiwis! Always a surprise up your sleeves. Mike Brown and Terry Wood have certainly earned their places in the WSG core team. If only my passport was current... That's going to be some party! Next year is going to be very interesting for meeting groups. We will be starting Perth and Canberra in the new year and there have been quite a few other cities suggested in the survey (see below). __ Texas: If you're in the Dallas or Fort Worth region, you should have received an off-list email about a potential meeting. I have only had two responses so far so please let me know if you're interested or if you're not interested so I know not to ask again ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Traffic: With over 100 posts a day lately, it's time again to ask that we cut down on frivolous posts. One of the most frequent complaints we get is about the signal-to-noise ratio on the list. Please stay on topic, no matter how clever your reply is. Send it back to the sender for a laugh, not the list please. We're not trying to stifle on-topic posts in any way. Signal is good, noise is bad. (Community is good too... Laughter is the best medicine (*(c) Readers Digest?)... Torn now... Noise is bad, let's leave it there.) If you have a question, please ask it, that's what the list is for. If you're just thanking someone for their input, do it directly. We can all assume you are being courteous and don't need to see it on the list. Also: * Turn off read receipt requests when posting to WSG. This is a daily problem for me as I get most of the receipts (to the list's reply address). * If you're going away over the holiday season and will be setting a vacation message, please unsubscribe before you do or send me an email ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) asking to be temporarily suspended and then remind me when you return to reinstate your subscription. We will terminate the membership of any member that has Out-of-office or vacation messages without notice from now on. * Please try to remember to set your message to plain text. HTML email causes sooo many issues on a list. We are still waiting for SmarterTools to give us the option of forcing only the plain text component of posts to the mailing list. This may be a while yet. __ Subject lines: Far too many Site check please (or similar) subject lines lately. People are happy to check your site and report back (hopefully directly to you and not the list unless there is a real lesson for everyone to learn and certainly NOT Looks fine to me replies) but it would help if you point out in the subject exactly what you need help with. So, Site check - webboy.net - Nav may be an issue is far better than just Site check (and no, I don't want an appraisal of my website, we know it needs work but it's way down the list :) ___ Validation: Please remember to validate your mark-up/css and repair any errors before asking for help (unless you need help with the validator results) and please supply a link to the site/page AND the css file (if the css isn't contained in the head of the same page). This is a very important step. A lot of the problem you are wanting solved may well be caused by invalid mark-up. It also shows others that you are making a concerted effort and are not asking people to do your coding for you. ___ Survey: If you haven't already responded, can I remind you about the WSG Member Survey. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=44544720503 (yes we know but the reporting this system does is excellent) The results of this survey will help shape the future of the group and the suggestions we are getting are fantastic. We have had responses from about 10% of the membership (by numbers) and the bigger the sample and range of ideas, the better the result. If there's something you don't (or do) like, please use this opportunity to let us know. We will be making significant changes to the website and membership process over the holiday season, and many of the changes will come from the suggestions in the survey. If you don't speak up now, your suggestions will not be part of the process. ___ Spirit: Play nice on the list please. Telling someone their site is crap is not nice (even if it is crap) and we will not be tolerating on-list rudeness any more. It's far easier to dump an ill-mannered poster than to put up with it and the successive posts (on- and off-list). As suggested, If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing. The only type of criticism on the list should be constructive criticism. That is all... P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See
RE: [WSG] My site is broken in Opera
Hi Alan, I strongly suggest putting the binary stuff into a background image. Google etc. will hate what you have there as will screen readers. Interesting effect but not a good idea unless maybe you put it at the end of the code order. Personally, I'd lose it and use an image as a css background. Is that why you have the mathml doctype? Can't see that it is mathml at all. It's just 1s 0s and nbsp;s. No formulae or anything mathematical to be seen. It's valid but not necessary and may choke older browsers. Also, semantically very poor. Use HTML elements as they were designed. They are not just for (default) visual behaviour, they are structural. Headings have more weight and are used by machines (search engines, screen readers etc.) for real semantic purpose. A div is not the same as a p even though they are both block level elements. The default settings (for devices that ignore the css) will make is pretty well unusable. As with most things, be careful what you ask for. The reason we do what we do here is to stop the need for code forking (different page/stylesheets for different browsers). It's not a good thing to do as you don't know what will happen. How are you determining the user agent? Opera (by default) ids itself as IE and is indeed getting the IE stylesheet (though you mentioned other browsers so this is probably not the issue). My advice, back to basics. Lose all the internal divs (apart from the containers maybe) and use hn p etc. as they should be used and you won't have to style every little spacer div and have a huge stylesheet that really doesn't need to be there. This should solve the issue. By the way, there is absolutely nothing on that page that would require using separate stylesheets if it were semantically correct code. It's the complexity of your HTML that makes it hard for cross browser compatibility. Saying IE doesn't like web standards is in fact wrong. It does them quite well if you use them the right way. Just a few little things to be aware of, none of which should apply to your page. So: div class=entrytitlespan class=contentheadThe Wise Words of Google - 25 November 2004/span/div (etc... Not putting all that here) Should be just: h2The Wise Words of Google - 25 November 2004/h2 p Here's a list of what google thinks of me: /p p jellybean is herebr / jellybean is a perl object server with an http interfacebr / jellybean is a gdr dogbr / jellybean is an enchantingbr / jellybean is a cat pookabr / jellybean is preposition the doorbr / jellybean is about 12br / jellybean is here to help /p p I got this from a href=http://www.googlism.com/;googlism.com/a. /p Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Trick Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 4:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] My site is broken in Opera Hi, I finished a nice update for my website, added a browser detection script on my css because IE doensn't like web standards. Now my site works in all the browsers I have exept for Opera, and I don't know why, can anyone help me with this? the url is http://jellybean.uni.cc n.b. it uses style.css in firefox/mozilla, and styleie.css all other browsers All the pages on the site are valid xhtml+xml and both css files are valid. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] W3C REFERER FIX?
Hi, yeah it works on my slave machine running sp1, but I tend not to have that connected, as it will just get eaten by the web (yours is still alive?). it The web never ate my machine pre SP2. Maybe I am more careful about where I browse. looks like it is a sp2 IE thing stripping the headers out. amongst other things. this in itself is an example of a browser/OS affecting accessibility. I have IE 6.02 on WinXP SP2 and it all works fine for me so please don't jump to conclusions blaming Microsoft. I suggest that it is a Norton AntiVirus or Norton Personal Firewall problem (explicit but educated stab in the dark). If you are indeed running any of the Symantec suite of products (lets call them CodeBreakers), shut them down for a minute, reload the page and try the referrer link again. If that doesn't work, keep looking (proxy server etc.), it ain't SP2 or I would have the same problem. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Defining A Definition List
Hi, Is a list with one item really a list? Yes absolutely. If there is one person in a room and you are asked to list the names of the people in the room then the list will have one name. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Defining A Definition List
Hi, Your second example is not valid; h3 element cannot be contained in dl Quite correct but it can be within the dd. in such way. the first one is ok, but why don't you consider such scenario: h2News/h2 div id=news-001 h3News Name Date/h3 pNews content here.../p /div or something similar to that. Imho, lists are not really to be used in such situations. Sorry Czeslaw, I disagree entirely with this. Definition lists are entirely appropriate for any name/value set and are quite different to other (ordered and unordered) lists. A div is far less semantically appropriate IMHO. A better approach may be: h2News/h2 dl id=news!-- id only needed if you need to style this differently to other DLs -- dtArticle 1 name/dt ddemdate/em/dd dd particle 1 content/p particle 1 content/p /dd /dl Then you will have granular control over the style of the decendants of the #news DL element so you could style (for example) the p element to have no top-margin and sit up under the date. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] PHP is OT
Hi folks, No more PHP discussions please. It's no more a web standard than ColdFusion etc. There are other places for those discussions. If it does happen to come up, please answer off list. Regards, Listdad ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Unsubscribing
These messages really should be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] rather than the list. Not to stop people publicly complaining but to keep the non-standards traffic down for everyone else. No to the forum, this has been discussed before. Yes to the no-mail membership but not until I have time over xmas. I still maintain it's kinda pointless though. The membership is to the list. There's nothing else (apart from the ability to add resources to the website) to be a member of. Non-members are welcome at the meetings. If you don't want the mailing list what are you joining for? As I've said before, I'm happy to charge you a joining fee, send you a little WSG member badge and tell you the secret handshake, but I really don't think you'll pay. Once I do it, if you're a member but not on the list you won't be able to post to the list. A reminder about the rss feed of the list. Not perfect but not in your inbox either. http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm I'd prefer responses off list please -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aaron Holbrook Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 8:04 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Unsubscribing Why not just create this kind of atmosphere in a forum, instead of an email group? Just a thought, people could check it on their own time - instead of filtering through dozens of emails each day (which I'm sure no one puts at the top of their list). Aaron Holbrook On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:59:58 -0500, Rob McCormack - ReadPlease Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an excellent suggestion. As good as it is... there is too much email for me to digest. ~Rob - - - - - - - - - - - Rob McCormack, P. Eng. President ReadPlease Corporation Software that lets your computer talk 121 Cherry Ridge Road Thunder Bay, ON, Canada P7G 1A7 Time Zone: ET, GMT-4, New York Time Toll free: 877-768-6720 Phone: 807-474-7702 Fax: 807-768-1285 Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://readplease.com - - - - - - - - - - - -Original Message- From: Aaron DC [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 3:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Unsubscribing Just a suggestion: I'd like to remain a member on the website but do not have time to read any emails at the moment. I went to the website to unsubscribe and it's a dual function - unsubscribe AND delete your membership. I'm unsubscribing, hope you dont take it personally. Would seem like a good idea (tm) to maintain membership but not email people. Aaron Atomic Software http://www.atomic-software.com.au phone: +61 409 430 231 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help With a weird link style
Hi Genau Jr, The first step when asking for help is always to get the page code valid first. See http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://novo.meucarronovo.com.br/ Most of your problems seem to stem from unescaped ampersands () in links (I haven't looked too far down as there are 153 errors). So, your link to: http://www.meucarronovo.com.br/cgi-bin/advertpro/banners.pl?region=0campaig n=74banner=52publisher=0mode=CLICKbust=203939timestamp=20041122044306 Must be converted to: http://www.meucarronovo.com.br/cgi-bin/advertpro/banners.pl?region=0amp;cam paign=74amp;banner=52amp;publisher=0amp;mode=CLICKamp;bust=203939amp;ti mestamp=20041122044306 Etc. all the way through your page. If the links come out of a dynamic system or CMS then you need to have that system escape the ampersands or give up on XHTML altogether. Once all the links are finished you'll probably have some other errors to fix. If you need help fixing those, please ask for help. When you get a This Page Is Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional! message on the validator, let us know if you still have problems with your initial enquiry. Regards, Peter - sorry. The correct link is http://novo.meucarronovo.com.br without www ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Font size... [ADMIN - CLOSED AGAIN]
Felix. A thread closed by a core member is not to be opened again. Period! The topic has been exhausted. If you have fresh information on the topic after a thread has been closed, send it directly to the person and not to the list. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Font size and arrogance
Be nice Iain! Final warning. Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Iain Harrison Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 7:53 PM To: Lothar B. Baier Subject: Re[2]: [WSG] Font size and arrogance Hello Lothar, Thursday, November 18, 2004, 8:06:50 PM, you wrote: On every computer I know, it is possible to reduce the screenresolution to get bigger text to the screen. You've never used an LCD screen that only works well at one resolution? You've never used a PDA? I don't think you understand the issue of accessibility at all. In many countries, laws have been needed to force people like you to catch up. So, when sobody with a handicap on his eyesight uses to set the screenresolution to the max. possible, he should not blame a webdesigner for no longer being able to read the text on a website. I design all my websites on a computer with the screenresolution set appropriate to the size of the screen I use. If the user does the same, he will be able to read, what is written there. If not, it's not my fault. If I build a road for you, don't you worry about the six-inch-high jagged rocks sticking out of the surface, or the eight-inch-deep potholes in the road, or the 1:2 gradients. They don't matter. I drive a big 4x4 and that drives along the road with no trouble at all. I build the road for my car with a surface appropriate for the vehicle I use. If the user does the same, he will be able to travel, along that road. If not, it's not my fault. -- Best regards, Iainmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Re[3]: [WSG] Question to the others ...
This is relevant in several respects: Firstly, we have to realise that there are some brain-dead mail filtering systems out there, and have to be careful about the words we use or quote in emails. I don't agree, I can be blue to people I know in person but profanity (including that mild but inelegant word) is simply not appropriate for this list. We have people of all ages and many cultures/religions including some clergy that won't appreciate the 'potty-type'. Don't do it and it won't be a problem. Common sense and courtesy rules and that means respect everyone. Secondly, the people behind these filters need to know that they are having their email censored for them. They probably do. Fourthly, we need to be wary of this stupidity spreading to HTML filtering. Maybe. What happens when bottom is considered too rude by a growing wave of prudery? margin-beneath, anyone? Now you're stretching :) And fifthly, be careful when inventing class names that they won't be a rude word in any possible language in the world! Why would you use anything like that? Why take the chance of embarrassing anyone? Iain End of discussion. Thanks, Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: HMMMM! RE: [WSG] Lakshmi Satyanarayana/ESS/NSW_AG is out of the office.
Obviously, you don't need to reply to these on list. We see them too and deal with them. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sam Hutchinson Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: H! RE: [WSG] Lakshmi Satyanarayana/ESS/NSW_AG is out of the office. Oh joy, an out of office reply to every post all the way until January! sam ___ CREATIVE SOLUTIONS FOR WEB, PRINT MEDIA http://www.sammyco.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 05:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Lakshmi Satyanarayana/ESS/NSW_AG is out of the office. I will be out of the office starting 12/11/2004 and will not return until 05/01/2005. I will respond to your message when I return. For Infolink, Lawlink or any other website Queries/Support please contact Megan O' Brien or Jane Floyd by Phone or Email. Alternatively you can contact Web Services by mailing at - [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this communication. If you have received this message in error please delete the email and notify the sender. Web Site http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Site check...
Some of this stuff is done best directly to the author, not the list... Use your good judgement when replying please. If it's just a Looks good or an unrelated question then the 1170+ others really don't need the traffic. If it's a standards related issue or question that may help others learn something, then the list is the correct choice. New topic. Let me point something out here. Please don't abuse or be rude to core members when they contact you about breaches of etiquette or the list guidelines (usually off list). I hear do about it and I won't stand for it. These people are helping make this list a better service for everyone. They're doing it for nothing and they deserve complete respect. Obviously this is aimed at a few specific individuals that can go elsewhere for help if they don't like the rules here. Thanks, ListDad ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] QuickTime and XHTML validation
The problem with that is that (on my machine and at the time 64k ISDN connection) it took about 3 minutes for the content to display, I assume because it was loading the QT first. The source code was all there while waiting to render. Try this: http://realdev1.realise.com/rossa/rendertest/quicktime.html P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] links with same names
Predictable is a good thing. Expectations met! Usability has a lot to do with predictability. The 'kiss' principle is always a good place to start. The whole Find out more about ... at the bottom of each page looks too predictable. You can adjust the words to suit the site e.g.: Find out more about title More about title Read title More on title Full text: title Depends on how your titles are written and how you are accessing them (hand coding or dynamic content output). If it's a custom built CMS you could even add a data field specifically for this link (a short title maybe). If it's hand coded then you can write a friendly link each time. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[ADMIN] RE: [WSG] OT: We need some international help! Urgently!
A perfect example of what not to send to this list. Throwing in the line and of cause a lot of webstandard skills (sic) does not put it on-topic. I suggest all new members read the guidelines (see the link in the footer). Traffic (and signal-to-noise ratio) is an issue on this list (especially for me who gets all the bounces - 471 of them yesterday) and with over 1100 addresses we must remain focussed and not abuse it. FYI, we handle 35,000 - 50,000 messages per week for this list alone. Had Dietmar read the guidelines and asked first I (probably) would have supplied an accepted, very brief format to do this advertisement. Sending this type of post without approval will have you deleted from the list. If in doubt, ask first! I say again. PLEASE READ THE GUIDELINES! Answer Dietmar off list if you must. ListGrump ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li
I notice that some people nest the input within the legend whereas I don't: Example: label for=nameName:br / input type=text name=name id=name size=55 //label or mine: label for=nameName:/labelbr / input type=text name=name id=name size=55 / Does it make any difference? The ID ties them together anyway so I think not. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Web Usability Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li One benefit of using fieldset and legend for screen reader users is that nearly all readers will read the legend before every input label within a fieldset. This can be very helpful with forms that require the same information within different sections of the form. For example, if you need put in name, phone number etc for a number of different people, the form input labels for each person will be the same - the layout of the form may make the different sections of the form obvious for visual users of the site, but the difference may not be obvious if you can't see. However, when you use fieldset and legend (with say a legend of purchaser for one person) then the reader will read the labels within this fieldset as purchaser name, purchaser phone number etc. An article with some more information about form accessibility can be found at http://www.usability.com.au/resources/forms.cfm Hope this is helpful Roger -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Susan R. Grossman Sent: Friday, 29 October 2004 1:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li Firstly, am I using fieldset and legend in the correct semantic manner? My understanding is that fieldset is meant to group all the similar form elements together, not to diferentiate each input.A group of numbered questions are all related to each other, and the entire thing should be in one fieldset with one legend. If you were to add a second group of numbered questions starting the numbers over again because they are related to each other, but not to the first group of numbered questions, then you would use a second fieldset and legend. (a new one, not nested) At least this is how I've interepreted and used the fieldset. An everyday example is a login form. The fieldset goes around the username and password text boxes as well as the radio button for remembering your password, with the legend on the login text. Any other fields like submitting for a lost password would be in a separate fieldset with new legend of forgotten password. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li
Yes, my use of the word legend should have read label. D'oh! P However in relation to legend, a whole bunch of labels and inputs can be presented within one legend. Roger I notice that some people nest the input within the legend whereas I don't: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: RE: [WSG] how so I stop all the postings coming to my email box?
Means I screwed up! Still tweaking it... Thanks for this. P WSG's feed page (http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm) gives me this error when I viewed it (FF 1.0PR, Win XP): + + + + + + + + + + + CODE + + + + + + + + + + XML Parsing Error: not well-formed Location: http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm Line Number 250, Column 100: description![CDATA[gt; Is there any way to force word wrap, even on single -- -^ + + + + + + + + + + + /CODE + + + + + + + + + + don't know what it means. later, Zulema ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] how so I stop all the postings coming to my email box?
Hi Casey, While answering your question I am also answering some other enquiries I have had recently so it's of interest to all (otherwise I'd answer off list). Joining WSG simply means joiningthe WSGmailing list. That's all there is (well, you can also add resources to the website as a member). I don't know what people expect for nothing. A badge or jacket? A secret handshake? Yes, digest mode will gather all the emails sent in a day and give them to you in one email. Probably a good idea to try it and see what it does. Most people with any list experience know what digest mode is, so I didn't think it needed explanation. It's quite clear in the terms of joining that you are joining a mailing list and the join message from the list server confirms it further. I'll look at the language and adjust if I think it's unclear. We don't have "boards" to read, we have a mailing list and given the complexity of the subject,there is often a lot of list traffic. This means that it's working as intended and nearly 1100 people around the world get answers to many questions and read some interesting debates on important issues like the correct use of elements within HTML and XHTML (semantics) and the appropriate uses of the languages. We get private emails from many members thanking us and saying how much the discussions have helped them, even though they didn't ask the initial question. I'm really not sure what you were expecting (boards?) but this is a mailing list, and seemingly a very effective one. Having said all that, when I get some time (or when someone offers to pay me while I do it 'cause I do have to eat and paying work comes first) I am looking at adding some fields to the member database so that you can be a member and not be on the mail list. This however means you won't be able to post to the list. We will give you some methods to read the list without receiving it in your mailbox. These include the current methods: The members archive (http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm ), the public archive (http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/ ) and an RSS feed (http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm ) you can read in something like FeedDemon. The date/time order in these is a little off butthey seem to work fine. No, there will not be a NewsGroup, a forum or a message board. The only method of getting help will be the mailing list as that is the root of this group. Personally, the mail list (with some filters inthe email client) works perfectly for me. Others choose a web-based email account (yahoo, hotmailor gmail) for reading the list posts. I have been testing the RSS feed and it's really no different. For those that have asked about list features, SmarterMail 2.0 has now been released and I'll be installing it soon so we may get a better Digest mode and hopefully (I haven't seen whether they implemented our suggestions) see the end of HTML email on the list altogether. Finally, let me point out that Russ and I (and the other core members) cannot watch the list every minute of the day. We have businesses to run and clients to keep happy. So not getting an answer within an hour is really not surprising from agroup (not club) with no membership fees. Also, we are in an entirely different time zone to you in Arizona (though our server is actually in Phoenix), all the core group are in eastern Australia. Welcome to the group Casey, I hope this clears up your questions. Regards, Peter Firminger From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SRGSent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:19 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] how so I stop all the postings coming to my email box? Hi, I just JOINED your group last night and now find my email box bomb-barred with to many messages / how do I stop them and still remain a member of your group. I simple want to read the messages from your boards. Is that what the Digest Mode does, because that is not clearly indicated as to its actual function. Thanks for your help. Casey
RE: [WSG] web photo album [ADMIN]
Hi folks, This isn't on topic at all. We don't talk about specific web applications on this list, just the concepts surrounding the output of any system. Please continue this discussion on the CMS list as that is far more appropriate (the content being the images in this case). See the resources section of the website for details of joining the CMS list. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Czeiger Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 1:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] web photo album Umm, Don't know if this is what you guys are after, but you can check out and use the code here: http://www.grafx.com.au/dik All done in XHTML, CSS and JavaScript. No database, no PHP. All you need is to use Photoshop's Automate feature and do a bulk rename in Windows for the images and thumbnails. You can add captions via a caption.js file. Someone might find this fun... :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] web photo album PS If you want to see it working in real life, im currently setting it up for some travel photos at http://www.bhatt.id.au/photos/ Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Neerav wrote: I have just found a great solution http://singapore.sourceforge.net/ singapore is yet another open source PHP based image gallery web application. What makes singapore different from the hundreds of other similar scripts is that it is specifically geared towards displaying photographic art and as such looks much nicer than most galleries. See it. It does NOT require MySQL or other database programs since all image information is stored in flat text CSV files (although an optional MySQL backend is planned for a future release). singapore also implements an info in filename system where artist and title information can be coded into the directory and file names meaning no database is required at all. More... Current features: * Flexible modes of operation: o Can store image info in CSV files on server (no database), or o Can store image info in directory and file names (no setup), or o Can function without any extra image info. * Multi language support * Support for unlimited depth of nested sub-galleries * Support for skins and templates * Very easy setup * Web based admin to add, delete edit images and galleries * Automatically generates thumbnails (requires GD or ImageMagick) * Generated thumbnails are cached for speed * Images may be stored on a different server * Image viewing statistics * User defined image information such as location taken, camera used etc. * XHTML 1.0 and CSS 2.0 compatible output only (no JavaScript and no cookies) Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav john wrote: Hello, WSG. In the process of getting some of my sites up to par with standards, I'm trying to find a clean alternative to the clunky photo albums I currently have. I could do it all by hand, but it would be extremely time-consuming (not to mention that I have a wife and kid that prevent me spending what time I have!), so can anybody please tell me if any software exists that can create clean thumbnailed albums using XHTML and CSS? Thanks a million. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Validation query
Interesting, You may have flummoxed it with the double color reference background-color : #05695c; color : #000; font-family : Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size : 80%; color : #02486c; Try removing the black one (color : #000;) and see if it fixes it. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jackie Reid Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] CSS Validation query Hi everyone im a bit confused here - trying to validate my css and i get this warning Line : 0 font-family: You are encouraged to offer a generic family as a last alternative what do they mean... i always do that and get the no errors or warnings reply... whats going on.. ? Jackie www.jobfitsystem.com/about.asp www.jobfitsystem.com/styles/jobfit2.css ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Validation query
Just a heads up, always look for No errors or warnings. You can get the congrats but still have warnings if you scroll down. Jackie's concern was a warning even though it was valid css. P Congratulations! Valid CSS!This document validates as CSS! Is what I get when I validate the CSS directly, or through the site!! Dunno what's going on. I quickly checked and you've got a generic font on the 3 font-families. I'd just say it's the validator being stupid. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Is XHTML harmful?
Hmmm... but it was also pointed out paste Note that a strict interpretation of the WAI WCAG 1.0 guidelines would indicate that you MUST use XHTML 1.0 if you intent to comply with WAI AA guidelines. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ Um, no. Not MUST at all. This is misinterpreting the facts. Checkpoints: 11.1 Use W3C technologies when they are available and appropriate for a task and use the latest versions when supported. [Priority 2] /paste I would think that IE's non support of the correct mime type means that when supported fails, and as for appropriate, that's a judgement call based on personal preference. HTML 4.01 is still entirely appropriate for general content mark-up and IS the latest version of HTML. What they mean here is that HTML 4.0 is not appropriate, (and it's debateable whether HTML 3.2 is either... By version do they mean the language or the subset? HTML 3.2 is the latest version of HTML 3) XHTML did not replace HTML or it would have been called HTML 5.0. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE topnav problems
Um, local machines won't work out here! P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] IE topnav problems I am stumped on this issue. Our top nav has a simple tab setup. It looks proper in firefox, there should be a thin white line separating the top nav from the subnav. In IE, there appears to be 2px of bottom padding or margin on the top nav and it is hiding the white line. I've tried all sorts of arrangements for this and cannot find a solution. Here's an appropriate example: http://tcdpc:8100/csa/help.do Here's the appropriate css: http://tcdpc:8100/csa/css/nav.css I've got a hack I can add to fillup some of the space but I'd rather get it to work properly. I've got a launch date of tuesday so any help out there is much appreciated. Thanks Ted ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Web standards planet
Hi Jad, I'm afraid I don't really see the point. All these blogs tend to interlink anyway so there's really nothing new here and there are many sites that do this kind of linking (e.g. http://dezwozhere.com/links.html among heaps of others). A site with no content isn't really of any value to anyone. Also, the naming is very confusing. W3 is an abbreviation (of sorts) for World Wide Web not Web Standards so using W3 Planet and Web Standards Planet together just doesn't work. Sorry to be so blunt. I'd suggest you put a bit (lot) more thought into the concept. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jad Madi Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Web standards planet Greetings Yesterday I got nice idea, so I start working on it actually W3 planet try to connect Web standards related bloggers, and web standards related sites within one website. please check http://www.w3planet.info/ guys your feedback is worthy Thank you Jad madi ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Change defaults in IE with CSS style sheet
Go to Tools | Internet Options and at the bottom of the General tab click the Accessibility button and add your stylesheet there. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 11:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Change defaults in IE with CSS style sheet Hi everyone I am wondering if anyone knows how to change the defaults in browsers like IE. I recall someone showed how a user can make their default font say Arial, 10, etc with particular colour like black on white background. Its all configured in a CSS file. So it over rides the CSS style that a website uses. I'd like to do some testing of a site and trying to factor this scenario in. Off-list responses welcomed.. Ralph ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Sorry for the huge email folks
Obviously that was meant to be sent to Kay directly. Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1300 666 770 +612 4998 3388 Proudly presenting: Web Essentials 04 Web standards :: accessibility :: inspiration :: knowledge Sydney Australia, September 30 - October 1, 2004 Book your place now at http://we04.com/ *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] [ADMIN] A plea for plain text to the list
Hi folks, In the last couple of days I have been getting many bounces from the list by mail servers blocking posts as spam because they are in HTML or Outlook Rich Text format. Can I again ask that you try to remember to set your emails to plain text rather than HTML when posting to the list. If your email program (Outlook specifically) is set to Outlook Rich Text then you really should change this to HTML (or even better, plain text) as it is pretty well unsupported by any other email client as far as I can see. There seems to be at least one person posting in this format. I haven't investigated as to who it is and I'd rather not go into it. No discussion required on this topic but if you have a specific query, please email us directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Listdad ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Why do (some) web developers user Firefox? [ADMIN] Wind it up please
I think we're done on this pretty well OT subject now thanks. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] CMS [ADMIN] Moved to CMS List
Hi, There is a specific WSG list for CMS matters. Please join and use that list for this discussion. http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource131.cfm for details. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Deering Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 11:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] CMS -Original Message- From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard) Hi Geoff, But still it is no guarantee to maintain the sites standards compliance when you hand it over to the client Actually, we are working hard to address this specific issue. Check out http://xstandard.com Regards, -Vlad XStandard Development Team XHTML Strict / 1.1 WYSIWYG Editor Yes, this is good, and many CMS's have similar editors built in; Cocoon/Lenya and Plone. But one still has to sign off to customer explicitly stating that if they meddle with the code your warranty of standards compliance and accessibility is then void. The other problem is contracts specifically specifying that they must comply with ATAG. I have not seen one yet, but I am sure it is coming, especially in government contracts. Unfortunately, from the developers side, ATAG is a rather naive document, I would never sign a contract that references ATAG compliance. Why, because all web based authoring tools must comply with WCAG1 P1. Show me one decent one that works with scripting turned off? Does xstandard meet this requirement? I think this is a reasonable accessibility request for web sites, but to deny the type of authoring environments via web forms that only scripting can deliver, is putting an almost impossible criteria on this type of authoring environment. It would mean you could only do simple processing of text like wrapping p around line breaks. If you don't think this is an issue, I have been in situations where I have had to comply to the letter of the specifications, and in some cases write detailed explanations of our code referencing a series of templates and show that that code on deliverable, is standard and accessible. And I wouldn't be so naive as to believe that no one will ever sue you for the holes in ATAG. It will happen if ATAG is not cleaned up and clarified. Geoff * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] A California meeting? was Brisbane July Meeting - Report
Hey folks, We don't need on-list confirmations of where you are thanks. If your details are right in the login database then we know. Thanks, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Meetings in new cities
Hi all, If you want to see how many people are in your area (and if you have over ten you can probably start a meeting group) please log into the site, scroll down on the member home page to Country/Member count and click View Details (or just go to http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_view.cfm ) Scroll down about 2/3 of the page and you'll see City totals. Check your city and if you have a good number of people, let us know ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and we can contact the people in your area to see if there is any interest. Perth and Canberra, we'll be onto you soon. London and New York are also candidates for our first non-Australian meeting groups. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] A California meeting? was Brisbane July Meeting - Report
Marina Del Rey, CA is a suburb of Los Angeles, California. Paradise!!! :-) Best, Jim Barricks Might be best to list yourself as Los Angeles then, or is it really too far spread? I've only seen the airport :) This is why we ask for the general city rather than suburbs or sattelite cities. I suspect there are some pretty close to Boston that list their city/suburb locally as well (Cambridge etc.). If you're interested in a meeting in your area, it might be a good idea to change your location to one that shows the closet major city you're prepared to travel to for a meeting. Oh, and please be neat, check the list to see the way others have entered the state etc. Use proper capitalisation. US states should be your two letter code (Uppercase). I keep an eye on it and adjust accordingly but it's time consuming. Also, check the spelling of your country. Some are entered in the local version and some in the English dirivitave (e.g. Brasil instead of Brazil, Espana instead of Spain). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Hi Scott, The process is open. Join W3C, get on a working group and contribute to you're heart's content. But you'll need to know a lot more than you do now. No offence but I think you'll be out of your depth just getting out of the elevator (as I would be). http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining It's very easy to criticise the process but very few (360) actually make the huge effort to be involved, sit on a working group, attend the workshops, contribute to the discussions and actually do something about it. I trust the people that are there and that they are a very balanced and incredibly clever group. http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List Obviously the majority of them are corporate. They have the resources to actually pay someone to be involved and fly them around to wherever the meetings are, and they will have a person that is an expert in the field. I wouldn't want just anyone (me, you etc.) sitting on these committees wasting their time. Read some of the transcripts of the meetings and see what's involved. Like this one from June: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-cdf-discuss/2004Jun/att-0 000/2004jun01.html A side point (from the above workshop)... I love this statement: Bert Bos: Nearly 10 years ago, HTML was in danger. Extensions for layout made HTML less useful, proprietary extensions, etc. so we created stylesheets. CSS is now being taken up, but HTML is in danger again. JavaScript is the worst invention ever. And this: Hakon Lie: Bert started his presenation by saying he joined W3C to save HTML. How do you save something? How do you save a village? An endangered species? Do we save it by freezeing it? Or by doing something totally differetrn? Evolve it? EDo we want a revolution or an evolution? P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Jobs and the list - where else?
Hi, Russ is in New Zealand at the moment and the end of the financial year was not good for either of us. For the moment I don't have time to build a new section for job ads, but it's in the list of things to do. I don't believe it's a good solution though as it will still require people to actively go there to look for new positions. It's not the role of WSG to be a listing agency so I only want the occasional one on the list and this has strict guidelines on formatting and wording. If you really need to post one, please write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] first and we'll give you the format and permission to post it. As for other places, if it's in Australia then try listing on www.webdesigners.net.au and I'm sure there are others as well. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Jobs and the list - where else? Graeme Great minds obviously think alike! I sent this email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] a week ago and have recvd no. I guess it got lost in his inbox, so ill post it here instead where all the moderators and members can read it: Russ Id like to put an idea to you as one of the WSG head honchos ... what do you think of this train of thought... 1. Developers who are a member of the WSG are more likely to use web standards in their work than developers who are not 2. Therefore they are more likely to employ / contract out work to fellow WSG members, because WSG members are more likely than not to have skills they require 3. Currently there is nothing stopping people from privately asking other WSG members if they know of job/contract opportunities by email, at the bi-monthly meetings or networking like on Thursday night, but it would be easier if WSG members who wanted to be contacted by: - prospective WSG member employees/contractors, - other WSG member companies to whom they can partner with Could add themselves to some kind of listing/directory available for viewing once logged into the WSG site. This could be beneficial for all members if done well. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Graeme Merrall wrote: Hi all. According to the list guidelines (http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm), job opportunities should not be posted. Is there an appropriate alternative for WSG people? Cheers, Graeme * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] THREAD CLOSED - Redesigning smh.com.au theage.com.au with css
Title: RE: [WSG] Redesigning smh.com.au & theage.com.au with css Sorry folks, nothing really wrong here but the subject line is giving me grief.Some Governmentspam filters see ; in the subject and throw it back to me and I'm getting swamped. Stupid really but there you go. If you must answer it please remove amp; from the subject line. No discussion on this matter please. P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter OtterySent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:18 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: [WSG] Redesigning smh.com.au amp; theage.com.au with css Hiya, sorry, dont mean to add to the list traffic too much but just wanted to point out that your Mozilla extension added in some of its own styles etc when used to copy and paste those styles Amit. (changed colour values to rbg and added things like "border: medium none"...) cheers, pete I was just going to say that Pete :) use firefox/mozilla and dig out the CSS with the 'web developer extension. Here you go Nancy. Regards, Amit Karmakar www.karmakars.com snip pasted smh css was here/snip
RE: [WSG] OT: Intranet Search utility [ANSWER TO SENDER ONLY PLEASE]
Please answer this off list as it has nothing to do with Web Standards. P I am looking for a (preferably free) software to be able to do searches on an Intranet site. The Intranet is hosted on a local Unix Server. Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Amit Karmakar www.karmakars.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Then again, according to the article (rant): changing standards = OXYMORON That's why there are different versions and subversions. 3.2, 4.0 and 4.01 are all different beasts. They don't change. If you're an idiot that doesn't think a doctype is required because you don't understand it, then what do you expect? The author doesn't understand what a standard is. Putting features into a browser outside the standard doesn't make the browser non-compliant. It's when they don't implement something that is in the standard (or get the implementation wrong as in the box model) that the problem occurs. If IE7 puts in some support for new proprietary tags that are undefined in any standard, fine, as long as we don't use them and discourage anyone else from doing so. The same reason that client-side VBScript failed will prevail. Who is this person? http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_07.aspx makes it even worse. He hasn't a clue. Just because you store the content in a database doesn't mean that it needs to be output in a table. It's not worth the effort responding. It's like talking to a confirmed racist. They make up whatever excuses they can satisfy themselves with. He'll feel like a fool when he eventually gets it as it'll all be in the wayback machine for posterity. Obviously why his name isn't on it. I don't care if Yahoo! uses invalid code. A) I don't (and refuse to) use it and B) I don't have to maintain it. A perfectly named company describing the people that run it :) Let it go. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Category for Standards-based applications
Hi List, I have added (at the request of Bert Doorn) a resources section for server applications that output valid code. Bert's question included the following: - In order to further promote standards compliant (x)html and css websites, I wonder if we could as a group provide a list/database of commonly used server-side scripts that are designed to output standards compliant code (or can do so with minor configuration). I don't see anything like it in the resources. I am thinking in terms of ASP/PHP/whatever scripts in categories like (to mention just a handful): Shopping Carts Content Management Systems Forums Blogs Classified Ads There are of course lots of script archives out there, but it's hard to find scripts that don't use tables nested n levels deep, font elements and other assorted crap. - I've added Movable Type and Farcry to start with so please add any others that you know of (and feel free to edit the text of my entries). See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat25.cfm Personally, I don't know that there are a lot of these available off-the-shelf yet. I guess that's where groups like this come in and our clever developers start making them available to the world. Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] file extensions
Not a good idea for the average website. If you're running amazon.com then there would be a reason to do it but for most of us maintenance would be an issue. P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher KennonSent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 9:28 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] file extensions Hi,Below is the url and excerpt from the passage in question. I've tried it and it works. The images are displayed, but someone looking over the code commented that it appeared that an image was used, but the extension was missing. Thus the question was inspired.Chrishttp://www.sitepoint.com/article/effective-website-acceleration/218. Remove or reduce file extensions. Interestingly, there really is little value to including file extensions such as .gif, . jpg , .js, and so on. The browser does not rely on these values to render a page; rather it uses the MIME type header in the response. Knowing this, we might take: img src="" and shorten it to: img src="" If combined with file renaming, this might produce: img src="" Don't be scared by how strange this technique looks; your actual file will still be sA.gif. It's just the end user who won't see it that way! In order to take advantage of this more advanced technique, however, you do need to make modifications to your server. The main thing you will have to do is to enable something called "content negotiation," which may be native to your server or require an extension such as mod_negotation for Apache or Port80's pageXchanger for IIS. The downside to this is that it may cause a slight performance hit on your server. However, the benefits of adding content negotiation far outweigh the costs. Clean URLs improve both security and portability of your sites, and even allow for adaptive content delivery whereby you can send different image types or languages to users based upon their browser's capabilities or system preferences! See "Towards Next Generation URLs" by the same authors for more information. Note: Extension-less URLs will not hurt your search engine ranking. Port80 Software, as well as major sites like the W3C, use this technique and have suffered no ill effects. On Saturday, June 12, 2004, at 03:34 PM, Jason Turnbull wrote: Just finished article from a reputable web site, specializing in bestpractices. They suggest omitting the file extensions .gif , .jpg and.png from image files for bandwidth conservation. Chris, Whats the URL for this article. I'm finding it hard to grasp thereasoning, does it save on bandwidth as the images don't get displayed?:-)RegardsJason*The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help*
[WSG] Workshop on the W3C's Semantic Web Services Activity
Hi list, For our Queensland members (or anyone else that has a travel budget to get them to Brisbane for a Queensland mid-winter weekend): The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is a non-for-profit, vendor-neutral international Web standards organisation that develops interoperable technologies (specifications, guidelines, software, and tools) to lead the Web to its full potential. W3C is a forum for information, commerce, communication, and collective understanding. You are invited to a free W3C workshop on the W3C's Semantic Web Services Activity to be held at: 9:30am to 10:30am Monday, 21 June 2004 IIB, Level 2, Leighton Building, 143 Coronation Drive (entry off Little Cribb Street), Milton http://www.iib.qld.gov.au/map.asp RSVP at: http://w3c.dstc.edu.au/events/bne2workshop_jun04.html Semantic Web Services = Web services are transforming the Internet from a collection of information into a distributed computational device. They enable software applications to be distributed, accessed and executed via the Web. But current web service technologies (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAP) provide limited support for automating service discovery, service configuration and service composition (i.e., realizing complex workflows with Web services). In order to fully employ the potential of web services, they need to be appropriately described. Semantic Web Services combines Semantic Web technology with Web Service technology to enable automated and dynamic Web service discovery, execution and composition through new technologies such as OWL-S (Ontology Web Language for Services). This presentation will provide an overview of the Semantic Web Services vision, describe recent technological developments (such as OWL-S), and demonstrate potential applications of Semantic Web services through a number of case studies. Bio === Dr Jane Hunter is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Distributed Systems Technology (DSTC) Cooperative Research Centre, at the University of Queensland. She is also Project Leader of DSTC's MAENAD (Multimedia Access for Enterprises across Networks And Domains) project which is developing indexing, archival, discovery, analysis, integration, management and preservation tools and services to enable knowledge management, mining and capture within the educational, cultural and scientific domains. She is currently the liaison between MPEG (Moving Pictures Experts Group) and W3C, a member of the Dublin Core Advisory Board and the W3C Web Ontology Language Working group and on the Editorial board of Elsevier's Journal of Web Semantics. This project is funded under the Commonwealth Government's Innovation Access Program. An initiative of Backing Australia's Ability, the Commonwealth Government's commitment to Innovation and supported by DSTC, the Information Industries Bureau, ATUG and The Web Standards Group. URIs: = AusIndustry: http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/ DSTC: http://www.dstc.edu.au/ IIB: http://www.iib.qld.gov.au/ ATUG: http://www.atug.com.au/ Web Standards Group: http://webstandardsgroup.org/ W3C Australian Office: http://w3c.dstc.edu.au/ W3C Semantic Web Services Interest Group: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/swsig/ No replies to the list please. Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] G RATED LIST
LOL Yeah, I'm not laughing! You should see the bounces I get from many many (Government) mail servers that block anything containing the f word (probably when it is in a URL). New rule (I really didn't think we had to make a rule about this) Anyone using profanity on this list in future will be dumped with extreme prejudice. Even if they're in urls. We have many members from many cultures/religions AND we have students as well, some quite young. I will not stand for anything that can possibly offend any member, especially when it adds to the weight of bounces into my inbox. We are definitely G RATED. Crap is the worst word I'll allow on the list. Don't answer, it isn't negotiable. and you'll probably like this: http://www... * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] meta http-equiv :- CORRECTION
Nope sorry, The correct content type or MIME type for an XHTML document is application/xhtml+xml. This (mime type issue) is only required for XHTML 1.1. You don't have to do it for XHTML 1.0 Transitional (which the example was). The answer to Jamie's original question is to have a look at the source of some valid XHTML documents (like http://we04.com/ off the top of my bald head) to see what others use or paste the code you sent us into a validator (I suggest http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/direct.html for direct input) or even more simple, validate it in your code editor. If you're not using a code editor (notepad isn't a code editor it's a text editor) get one! It's simply amazing what google will show you on these topics as well! http://www.google.com/search?q=xhtml+mime+type http://www.google.com/search?q=xhtml+doctype Sorry Jamie, just trying to teach people how to fish (on a very well documented issue) instead of catching and cooking it. Sorry if this approach offends anyone but if it saves just 10% of the stuff coming into my inbox it's worth it (66 posts and 161 bounces from this list so far today). Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standard Hacks?
Russ and I have discussed this at length and we have come to the opinion that the @import rule (when used in that manner) is indeed a hack but a harmless one. The reasoning is that it exploits a bug or particular behaviour in a browser. In this case, older browsers don't understand it at all and they ignore it so that the real styles that will break them can be put in there safely. We believe (and maintain) that it is harmless as we can't envisage any browser manufacturer not obeying it in the future as it is actually the preferred method. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harwood Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Standard Hacks? media=screen is not a hack, thats statin the proper display device target for the relavent stylesheet. Hacks are things like the IE Underscore hack, they tend to be workarounds for CSS properties that are not yet implemented in certain browsers or that need slightly differnt values, theres differnt hacks for each of the dodgy browsers. But you sould always look towards creating your site hack free as that is the best was to make sure its backward/forward and bloody even sideways compatible! Hacks are for the Cowbot webdesigner who hasnt done his job right in the first place! ( or for a client thats given too much hassle and not enough cash to make the recode cost effective! ;] ) Mark www.phunky.co.uk On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:11 , J4Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: Well; I am surprised, but pleased actually, that so many of you are saying that hacks are not part of the Standards Arsenal. I had got the impression that I needed to become familiar with gadzillian hacks and be able to draw the appropriate one out of the woodwork every ten lines of CSS code. But I am getting the message that one can produce Standards Compliant pages without hacking. I am not quite totally convinced, though, and some of the replies have gone in the direction of supporting a big fat list, if not including some hacks in standard templates. I wondered if there are some workarounds that people on this list use habitually and forget they use them, so I did a quick sample of some of the URLs at the bottom of peoples' posts and the only hack I found so far (but I have not searched very thoroughly) was on the webstandards.org.au site : @import url(/stylesheets/wsg_advanced.css); media=screen Is the import hack a candidate for first (or sole) item on the list of standard hacks? It seems pretty essential to me to get version 4 browsers to degrade gracefully. I am enjoying learning from those who have been in this game much longer than me. John The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standard Hacks?
No, we do it to specifically exploit this bug or particular behaviour so it is a hack. If you look at the stylesheets you'll see that there is basic css in the one that NN4 can see and all the other more advanced stuff is in the one it can't see. All quite deliberate using both methods to achieve it. So it is a bug. Not a hack. Imagine an webdesigner who never saw NN4.x nor he cared to much about it's bugs. He uses perfectly valid @import rule. And all of sudden you claim him using hacks. Why? Ignorance of the law is no excuse :-) and he (or she) would get an unstyled page in NN4, doesn't bother me a bit as long as it is semantically correct as well. I would say this person was hacking at all. It's the use of BOTH methods to target NN4 that is a hack. Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
