NVidia would release the source code that was removed ?
best
Vladimir Dergachev
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006, jim male wrote:
Hello mailing list! I have an old nVidia GeForce 256 with an Svideo port and
an NTSC TV that I'd like to pair. I've heard
have been overwritten if you
recompiled your kernel in the process.
best
Vladimir Dergachev
Also, I'm not sure how the XFree86 logging works, but if that log file
maintains multiple sessions, you might be looking at one where my
computer
the correct one ?
On the off chance it would help.
best
Vladimir Dergachev
Peace,
William
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.
best
Vladimir Dergachev
There was an issue with Athlon/Duron AGP bandwidth issues that arose in
Xfree 4.3.0, and was unaffected by GATOS drivers. A later kernel update
made it a bit better, but I do still get better xv throughput on my PCI
Rage128 card, than
Hi Alex :)
Thanks for the patch !
May I suggest that you change XV_GR_ALPHA and XV_OV_ALPHA to
XV_GRAPHICS_ALPHA and XV_OVERLAY_ALPHA ? This does not cost anything
in terms of performance.
best
Vladimir Dergachev
On Wed, 19 Nov
do not believe it
to be specific to GATOS drivers).
best
Vladimir Dergachev
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Which application was used ?
best
Vladimir Dergachev
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Billy Biggs wrote:
I've got a report that the radeon driver hides cursors after an
inactivity timeout when above an XVideo window. Can anyone confirm or
deny
of stacking order.
I have seen this since upgrading to XFree86 4.2.0..
best
Vladimir Dergachev
On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Mark Vojkovich wrote:
I don't have any idea. You might want to build a debug server
and break during these pauses to see where it's
It appears [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not functioning normally..
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:05:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Vladimir Dergachev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: dga mouse broken ?
I have updated XFree86 CVS tree to the version of about
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Fre, 2003-02-07 at 15:42, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
It appears [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not functioning normally..
Well, I got your post below.
Strange, I did not. I did get the post when I sent to devel@ address.
-- Forwarded
I have updated XFree86 CVS tree to the version of about an hour ago (about
the time rc1 was tagged) and it appears that mouse is broken in Quake.
Pressing mouse buttons works fine but the cursor does not move.
Any suggestions ?
best
Vladimir
to
IRQ sharing.
The simplest way would be to define a mask of interrupts and AND it with
the current values of GEN_INT_CNTL before clearing acknowledge bits.
best
Vladimir Dergachev
--
Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU
Michel,
could you remind me what is that xxx_SAVE bit ?
best
Vladimir Dergachev
On Sun, 3 Feb 2003, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Son, 2003-02-02 at 12:51, Michel Dänzer wrote:
On Son, 2003-02-02 at 06:09, hy0
Michel,
could you remind me what is that xxx_SAVE bit ?
best
Vladimir Dergachev
On Sun, 3 Feb 2003, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Son, 2003-02-02 at 12:51, Michel Dänzer wrote:
On Son, 2003-02-02 at 06:09, hy0
that it is actually interested it ? Otherwise it
clears capture and gui_dma IRQs which GATOS km driver needs and which are
not used by drm at all.
thank you
Vladimir Dergachev
--
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XFree86
There is a fix in current CVS for this. Also GATOS code has a similar fix
as well.
best
Vladimir Dergachev
On Sat, 1 Feb 2003, Mike A. Harris wrote:
The ATI drivers have been having mouse cursor artifact problems
in current CVS on all Radeon hardware
) documentation
* knowing who to contact for testing - and knowing how much hardware
variety there is.
* presumably the potential developer would be one with the hardware..
best
Vladimir Dergachev
Thanks for any direction help!
Ben
Vladimir Dergachev
integrated might mean anyting, i have an IBM E-Pro here that
just has mounted a grafics chip and a few RAMs on the motherboard
with the option of plugging an AGP NLX card instead.
integrated typically means same die as the host/memory bridge
I think you need to load agpgart before DRM module. It is probably a good
idea to simply compile agpgart into the kernel.
best
Vladimir Dergachev
On Sun, 22 Dec 2002, theFlosch wrote:
Hello there!
does annyone have this problem too? agpgart is loaded
, radeon) for Linux 2.4.x.
It should not be too hard to add support for other cards.
Vladimir Dergachev
need a *different* kernel module for every combination of hardware,
operating system (aren't there some XFree86 supported systems that don't use
loadable kernel
XShmGetImage b/c i'm not clear about the usage.
Generally XDrawString should work with any valid pixmap. You could verify
the result by copying an area of a pixmap into window.
Vladimir Dergachev
Thanks
-Brian
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on a 3dfx 3500. It did not work on 4.1 either.
This works fine on ATI cards (see http://gatos.sf.net/) so this is most
likely due to a limitation in the application, or the driver, or the
hardware.
best
Vladimir Dergachev
Any suggestions to a workaround
On 18 Sep 2002, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Mit, 2002-09-18 at 07:40, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
On 18 Sep 2002, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Die, 2002-09-17 at 23:39, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
1. Cloning the display and using XVideo halts the system when
On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 01:36:10AM -0400, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
If you are using GATOS ati.2 binaries make sure that you use drm-kernel
modules from GATOS, not stock drm modules.
The drm module in my kernel is indeed from gatos
On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 11:31:42AM -0400, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
I do not think gatos drm-modules work well with PCI cards (at least not
without changing some flags).
Seems to be working OK here, minus achieving direct rendering
Vladimir Dergachev
On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am running Mnadrake's Cooker which now has XFree86 4.2.1 plus gatos'
ati.2 from cvs as of 20020907 (same thing happens with stock 4.2.1
ati driver). When I try to start my Xserver I get
the following errors
, wouldn't it be better to fix that other AdjustFrame
function for clone?
Judging by the patch this is not anywhere near GATOS modifications and
looks to be pretty reasonable.. I am not current on recent XFree86 CVS
though.
Vladimir Dergachev
Or is this about
and don't autodetect.
What 0x4243 is supposed to mean?
It's a pci id of AIW Radeon 8500 DV. Perhaps it has not made into linux
kernel yet. Also try this:
Option ChipId 0x4243
If still does not work try ati.2 drivers from http://gatos.sf.net/
Vladimir Dergachev
pci bus
Which card do you have ? I don't recall r128 cards supporting two heads..
With the exception of notebook chipsets. (Note: TV-out does not count).
Vladimir Dergachev
On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Alex Deucher wrote:
I don't suppose someone out there with r128 docs would fill
Try adding
Option ChipId 0x4243
To the device section of /etc/XF86Config
Vladimir Dergachev
On 10 Sep 2002, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
Hi,
I have ATI Radeon 9000 Powered by ATI (made by Sapphire).
It has only analog (monitor) and s-video output, no dvi,
64M
.
Vladimir Dergachev
Cheers
Michel
-
Michel Lanners | Read Philosophy. Study Art.
23, Rue Paul Henkes|Ask Questions. Make Mistakes.
L-1710 Luxembourg
you might have about memcpy is the extra latency it
introduces, but that is not very much. A 32bpp 640x480 image takes about
1.3meg. With 100mhz SDRAM, it will take less than 6.5ms for memcpy.
Certainly less with faster RAM.
Vladimir Dergachev
XImage-data = buffer
On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Marc Aurele La France wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
I recently installed Red Hat 7.3 on my Vaio notepad. Everything works
except for the display, which has the following strange behaviour. If I do
startx then I do not get a functioning
on the original display.
What about having per-connection Window ID translation table ?
This could be done entirely in Xlib..
Vladimir Dergachev
Regards,
Owen
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of, but there are manpages. If you want to
take a look at a working code that scans for adaptors take a look at
avview/xv.c, it should be clean enough.
Vladimir Dergachev
Thanks in advance.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Toshinao Ishii mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED
is correct (and you are not running out of space on the partition it
is saved to).
Vladimir Dergachev
Dave
MY.Metro2000.Net
This message was sent using Metro2000 Web Information Gateway.
For more information
On 3 Jun 2002, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Mon, 2002-06-03 at 03:39, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
For people who were interested in observing VSYNC/VBLANK interrupts from
userspace there is an experimental implementation for radeons on
http://gatos.sf.net/ in CVS - module km
not do it yet so as to limit places I need to update if any
api changes come about.
On how to use see km.actual.rfc.txt and test1.tcl, in the same CVS, module
km.
Comments and feedback are quite welcome.
Vladimir Dergachev
For X to be able to drive S-Video special support is needed. It is
currently in very early stages of development, see
http://gatos.sf.net/watching_tv.php
Vladimir Dergachev
On Mon, 27 May 2002, Pranay Kumar wrote:
Thanx for the instructions. It could
be.
Vladimir Dergachev
best regards.
Paul.
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/XF86Config have no effect.
Vladimir Dergachev
On Sat, 11 May 2002, Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad wrote:
I posted an idiot-proof Xconfig in the 90s and had used it successfully in dealing
with different cards and monitors.
It even worked on Diamond Edge 3D 2000 display
does not do this (yet?).
What software do you want to use this with ? Is the source available for
download ?
Vladimir Dergachev
Its closed source commercial stuff I'm afraid.
Ohh. Well in this case this will stay unsupported
available for
download ?
Vladimir Dergachev
Has anyone had to deal with these kind of issues?
I should say that CPU time is scarce, as the TV fields are compressed in
hardware and have to be decompressed in software.
--
Paul Robertson
On 27 Apr 2002, Les Dunaway wrote:
The subject option doesn't wok on my RH 7.2 / XFree 4.1.0 system. The
Option Display CRT does work.
No Mirror devices are known at this time.
Vladimir Dergachev
Any ideas?
Les
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / 770-974-4289
Life is like
Hmm.. Try using DefaultDepth 16 in your Screen section.
Vladimir Dergachev
On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello,
I recently bought an ATI Radeon 7500, and upgraded XFree to
4.2. After running X -configure (as opposed to
xf86config), I can finally get
On 22 Apr 2002, Doug Alcorn wrote:
Vladimir Dergachev [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Most likely you do not have enough video ram for this. One suggestion is
to switch to 16bpp.
I've gotten several comments of this nature. I have 8MB of video
ram. According to the DRI calculator, I
On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Bharathi S wrote:
On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
How find the window id by using the following structures
Display, Drawable, Graphics Context ?
AFAIK, Window id is the same thing as the drawable, provided the drawable
points to the window
Most likely you do not have enough video ram for this. One suggestion is
to switch to 16bpp.
Vladimir Dergachev
On 21 Apr 2002, Doug Alcorn wrote:
I thought I would post this mainly to populate google. I can't
remember where I saw the user comment with the solution
.. is another matter. There are more than few
places where I decided to bypass cleanliness in favor of working code.
This improves, but slowly.
Vladimir Dergachev
Does DRI compiles for you without ati.2 ?
Also, according to recent post to this list, GATOS will be merged
Try using the configuration file produced by
XFree86 -configure
Vladimir Dergachev
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Eric Johanson wrote:
Hi there!
I'm sending you both this message with hopes that someone could help,
or point me in the correct direction.
I'm running
not do it for
DPMS.
Vladimir Dergachev
Stuart
Stuart R. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Metro Link Incorporated South Carolina Office
5807 North Andrews Way 129
.
Vladimir Dergachev
dbr
On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 23:11, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
On 9 Apr 2002, David B. Ritch wrote:
I tried watching the movie xine_about.avi using xine 0.98. On screen 0,
the builtin flat panel display, it worked fine. On screen 1
know what happens.
thanks !
Vladimir Dergachev
dbr
On Mon, 2002-04-08 at 15:26, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
On 8 Apr 2002, David B. Ritch wrote:
Never mind! I got it working. FYI - here's my XF86Config file.
Great :) Could you
Try duplicating device entries and putting
Screen 0
and
Screen 1
in them (I think you'll need to use different identifier as well).
Vladimir Dergachev
On 8 Apr 2002, David B. Ritch wrote:
Great!
Then maybe someone can help me with this. Whenever both the internal
On 8 Apr 2002, David B. Ritch wrote:
Never mind! I got it working. FYI - here's my XF86Config file.
Great :) Could you report on how well Xv works on both screens ? Thanks !
Vladimir Dergachev
dbr
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On 8 Apr 2002, David B. Ritch wrote:
I'll try, but I don't know the X extensions very well. Can you give me
some fairly common appas that use Xv?
xine or mplayer.
Vladimir Dergachev
Meanwhile, there is another critical problem with Xinerama on my
system. Several
Vladimir Dergachev
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Box 13692, La Jolla, CA, 92039 USA
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Try adding
Option composite_sync off
to your Device section. If does not help try changing it to on.
Also try dash 11 binaries from http://gatos.sf.net/
Vladimir Dergachev
On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Simon Sandlund wrote:
Hi,
I'm using XFree86 4.2 with a mach64 card
On 5 Apr 2002, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Mit, 2002-04-03 at 15:30, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
Also, take a look at http://gatos.sf.net/ Note: binary drivers might not
(will likely not) work for BSD, you will need to compile from source.
If they don't work, they're broken
Vladimir Dergachev
--
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President Founder
Video2Video Services
Box 13692, La Jolla, CA, 92039 USA
+1-413-403-9555
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On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, martin f krafft wrote:
also sprach Vladimir Dergachev [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002.03.31.0421 +0200]:
Are you sure that is the correct log ?
yes.
First of all XFree86 version is 4.1.0.1 - way old.
yeah, i know. but debian doesn't have 4.2.0 out yet.
Secondly
if there are any features that you think are better in TNT2
(driver-wise) than in Radeon.
Vladimir Dergachev
--
Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer
XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast
chips is that registers that describe a
buffer in ram are buffered with new values taking effect after retrace.
I do not think this takes any significant amount of chip real estate.
So there should not be any reason not to implement this.
Vladimir Dergachev
Mark, do you
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Mark Vojkovich wrote:
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Egbert Eich wrote:
Mark Vojkovich writes:
Looking at the code for the siliconmotion driver in the tree, I'm
not surprised. It looks like the driver
someplace else.
Vladimir Dergachev
Egbert.
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On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, martin f krafft wrote:
also sprach Vladimir Dergachev [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002.03.31.0131 +0100]:
Could it be that the crash happens when the driver uses int10 for
something ? Dell notebooks often have BIOS with pecularities and this
would explain why this does
24 TrueColor visuals, but that was easy enough
to fix.
Keith, could you tell me what was broken in GATOS code ?
thanks !
Vladimir Dergachev
Diffs from current XFree86 CVS can be found at
http://keithp.com/~keithp/download
Most like some of kdm configuration files got overwritten. Try
reinstalling kdm.
Vladimir Dergachev
On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Robert [ISO-8859-1] Wörle wrote:
Hi
my KDM is not starting anymore after i installed Xfree86 4.2.0
this happened on 3 machines !! now i use GDM
On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Keith Packard wrote:
Around 14 o'clock on Mar 29, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
The Gatos code was a bit broken, working
for only depth 16 and depth 24 TrueColor visuals, but that was easy enough
to fix.
Keith, could you tell me what was broken in GATOS code
On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Keith Packard wrote:
Around 15 o'clock on Mar 29, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
I was under impression that Radeon driver only uses 565 and 32bpp ARGB
framebuffer formats. I do not think it makes sense to support Xv with 8bpp
modes so I thought the code to be correct
On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Mark Vojkovich wrote:
On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Keith Packard wrote:
Around 15 o'clock on Mar 29, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
I was under impression that Radeon driver only uses 565 and 32bpp ARGB
framebuffer formats. I do not think it makes sense to support Xv
framebuffer value into internal 32bpp format.
Vladimir Dergachev
Keith PackardXFree86 Core TeamCompaq Cambridge Research Lab
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On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Keith Packard wrote:
Around 18 o'clock on Mar 29, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
The video key is now configurable (option videokey 42) and
has a non-zero default value (30).
I just want to point out that GATOS code already supports this.
As for 8bbp - I
. (And it is possible that for 8bpp
framebuffer the alpha of the result is always zero..)
Vladimir Dergachev
Marc.
+--+---+
| Marc Aurele La France | work: 1-780-492-9310 |
| Computing
On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Keith Packard wrote:
Around 18 o'clock on Mar 29, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
As for Radeon colorkeying the reason we use RGB values is because Radeon
no longer supports keying on the value of graphics pixel,
Well, I just experimentally determined that (at least
be greatly appreciated.
See http://gatos.sf.net/dri-debug.php
Vladimir Dergachev
TIA
John L. Pierce
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See
man xvidtune
Vladimir Dergachev
On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Louis Lu wrote:
Hi
I have two resolutions (640 and 800) been setup in my Linux
RH7.2. I can use Ctrl - Alt - + to switch resolution back and
forth. I just wondering whether or not there is a way to do
4.2.0 should work with it.
Vladimir Dergachev
On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Antonio MATTA wrote:
Hi,
I am a newbie in this list and I do not know if this is the right list
to send this message.
It happens that I have an ATI Rage 128 Pro TF Video Card and I was
wondering
have seen someone else report a very similar problem with
dual Radeons.
Vladimir Dergachev
Mark.
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it and if it fails then it does not
work.. ;)
Vladimir Dergachev
-- Dave Williss
--
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
for you are crunchy and taste good with catsup
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even though
you did not make StopVideo call through Xv library.
Does this help ?
Vladimir Dergachev
Kevin
XFree86 Version 4.1.0 / X Window System
(protocol Version 11, revision 0, vendor release 6510)
Release Date: 2
? And if you really want to make a monster of it, why
not tie XFree86 into Tcl and make XF86Config a Tcl script ? This would
allow for a number of fancy things like, for example, autodetecting
configuration at startup without mess of C code.
Vladimir Dergachev
and I'm just running in circles. Also, does the new 4.2 version
of Xfree86 support my chip set? Any help in this matter would be greatly
appretiated.
Which XFree86 version are you running ? I believe it should work fine with
4.2.0.
Vladimir Dergachev
Thanks,
Jeff
to 0 in several places
which, apparently, causes engine lockups on some hardware.
Vladimir Dergachev
--
Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer
XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast
.
Vladimir Dergachev
Thanks
Bob
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Vladimir Dergachev
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Cambridge Research Laboratory
Compaq Computer Corporation
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this be possible with the radeon driver?
And, can I use the TV-out with the Radeon 7500?
This code is very experimental.. and was not tested with your card in
specifically.. See http://gatos.sf.net/ - Watching TV
Vladimir Dergachev
Thanks a lot
Armin
this.
Vladimir Dergachev
Regards
Oliver
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On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Branden Robinson wrote:
On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:58:25AM -0500, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
AFAIK, you can try using 3.3.6 server and use libraries from 4.2.0..
This from the guy who wants people to keep their Linux kernel, X server,
and Mesa library in absolute
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Dr Andrew C Aitchison wrote:
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
In fact, I do not even know a good app to test GL functionality,
not perfomance (i.e that all calls do as they should and do not crash the
machine).
I'm fairly sure
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Gareth Hughes wrote:
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Dr Andrew C Aitchison wrote:
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
In fact, I do not even know a good app to test GL functionality,
not perfomance (i.e that all calls do as they should and do not crash
AFAIK, you can try using 3.3.6 server and use libraries from 4.2.0..
Vladimir Dergachev
On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, jtannenba wrote:
Hi,
Mandrake uses XFree86 4 and I have an ATI Graphics Pro
Turbo video card with 4 meg of Vram. The problem is
no matter what config
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Jens Owen wrote:
Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
Also, I can make drm driver work nice with older 2d drivers - as soon as
someone will show me a way to tell the version of the 2d driver that is
accessing the drm driver.
How about using a new set of IOCTL numbers
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Kevin E Martin wrote:
On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:43:20PM -0500, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Jens Owen wrote:
Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
Also, I can make drm driver work nice with older 2d drivers - as soon as
someone will show me
On 1 Feb 2002, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Mit, 2002-01-30 at 15:26, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
On 30 Jan 2002, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Mit, 2002-01-30 at 10:32, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
On 30 Jan 2002, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
Btw
it took quite a while to figure out which OFFSETs are
really offsets and not absolute addresses. My only desire is to get it
done right, now that we know how to program it.
Vladimir Dergachev
-- Gareth
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Have you tried man strip ?
Vladimir Dergachev
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, [big5] Ethanli [§õ±j] wrote:
Hi all,
I am building my own Linux distribution and I need your he...
My environment is :
Kernel 2.4.12
Gcc 3.0.1
XFree4.1.0
The problem is the size of the X
On 31 Jan 2002, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote:
On Mit, 2002-01-30 at 15:56, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
http://gatos.sf.net/ - they were there last time I submitted a patch.. but
it did not get in. Just to make sure I am not pulling
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Jens Owen wrote:
Vladimir Dergachev wrote:
As for Linus not wanting to accept it, 2.4 has dropped most nat filters
except for ftp and most of them aren't back yet. So I don't buy this
argument.
Vladimir,
This is no joke. We absolutely need compatability
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