[delicious-discuss] Idea of input interface: source and larger extended field
Here are my two thoughts about delicious input interface. The first is lack of a source input field, which is the place for taggers to put where they got the link. I know we can put it in extended field, but that will not be recognised by the system. For someone doing folksonomy research, where people get one perticular URL is also important. At least for authors, he would like to know where taggers found his link. The other thoughts is about the extended field. It's too small. Can we have a textarea. So that we can input more notes. For someone that subscribed to certain tag feeds, he should like to know why people tag this link without to check each link himself or take for granted just by the title of the link. If we have a textarea not just a text field, it will encourage people to write more when they tag one link. Just some food for thoughts. Maybe they have been discussed on this list, but surely not recently. What da ya think? Luyi Chen ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[delicious-discuss] Idea of input interface: source and larger extended field
On 6/12/05, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Few days ago I wrote an entry (see below) on how I thought delicious should let users tag url with an approximation of a tag cloud instead than with a tag set. This by considering as relevant the order of the tags. Pietro: I read your proposal with great interest, but I don't think the idea of tagging with an approximated power set/cloud really matches the expectation of how people actually tag. I know its not how I tag, if it matters. Essentially, the difficulty is the issue of order in terms of my conception. If I tag a post as fiction, prose, science, I'm not trying to say that the fact its prose fiction is more important than the fact it's about science. On the contrary, I CAN'T say, because that meaning is ultimately in the mind of the community as a whole, not in my perception. By assuming my tag set is really a cloud, you're injecting meaning where there really isn't any. Further, if Del started assuming tags are input as clouds rather than sets, it would actually limit my expressibility. I can't say, in such a context, that an entity is equally two or more (or potentially a lot more) things; there's an implicit hierarchy. I thought we were trying to get away from preconceived hierarchies? From my perspective, the tag cloud as an entity can ONLY occur post hoc, once the community has commented on the nature of the entity with tag sets. Assuming (or even requiring) that the attached notation is a cloud rather than a set invalidates a lot of the meaning you can derive from the resulting hypercloud. It means LESS that, knowing the annotations are clouds, that the word that comes up most often first is prose, rather than in the current state of tag sets, the word prose occurs most frequently. This isn't intended as a heavy criticism of the idea of tag clouds as meaningful. On the contrary, I think the post hoc observation of tag clouds over time is THE best means of understanding how the community thinks of an entity. I disagree that its worth the cognitive overhead to think of tagging with tag clouds rather than sets. -- Alexander Williams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Proprietor of the Squid's Redoubt (http://chancel.org:8000/Redoubt) ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[delicious-discuss] media support
Bookmarked items in del.icio.us that end in one of a number of filetypes will now automatically get some system tags added. You can use these just like normal tags. The tag system:media:video includes - *.mp3 as system:filetype:mp3 - *.wav as system:filetype:wav The tag system:media:video includes - *.mpg as system:filetype:mpg - *.mpeg as system:filetype:mpeg - *.avi as system:filetype:avi - *.wmv as system:filetype:wmv - *.mov as system:filetype:mov Examples: - ALL music items on delicious http://del.icio.us/tag/system:media:audio - mp3s tagged as mashups http://del.icio.us/tag/system:filetype:mp3+mashups - ALL video items on delicious http://del.icio.us/tag/system:media:video RSS feeds that have one of those system tags added will automatically become a rss-with-enclosures file. Examples: - ALL music items on delicious as a podcast http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/system:media:audio - mp3s tagged as mashups as a podcast http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/system:filetype:mp3+mashups - ALL video items on delicious as a podcast http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/system:media:video (a nice client for this is ANT at http://www.antisnottv.net/) I also wrote a quick hack to show some recent mp3s at: http://del.icio.us/feeds/m3u/all.m3u ... I'll be extending the m3u/pls?/etc support for tags and users and so on later. In addition, the following types are recognized but I couldn't find any clever file formats to syndicate them with: The tag system:media:image includes: - *.jpg as system:filetype:jpg - *.jpeg as system:filetype:jpeg - *.gif as system:filetype:gif - *.png as system:filetype:png The tag system:media:document includes: - *.pdf as system:filetype:pdf - *.doc as system:filetype:doc -j -- joshua schachter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://del.icio.us ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [delicious-discuss] Idea of input interface: source and larger extended field
Joshua Schachter wrote: [re: larger extended field] This is currently a database limitation; I am looking at extending it. It is constrained mainly because the tool is designed to let you cue your memory with some notes, not be a full blog (which is what it will become if we make it larger. People will ask for markup and so on. What does the interface look like? How would it get displayed? How do I prevent griefers? And so on. I mentioned this some time ago, so sorry for being repetitive, but would it be possible to limit the *input* for the text field, and not only the output? I agree with all your points in favour of keeping the descriptions short, but I'd find it much more convenient if there was some sort of feedback on what will get snipped of my input *before* submitting the link. I have now resorted to copy-pasting as few words as possible from the page I'm bookmarking, but sometimes I still have to go back and trim the description a couple of times before it's short enough for the system. Any ideas? Cheers, Andrea ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [delicious-discuss] media support
* Joshua Schachter [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-06-12 08:59:29]: Bookmarked items in del.icio.us that end in one of a number of filetypes will now automatically get some system tags added. You can use these just like normal tags. The tag system:media:video includes - *.mp3 as system:filetype:mp3 - *.wav as system:filetype:wav The tag system:media:video includes - *.mpg as system:filetype:mpg - *.mpeg as system:filetype:mpeg - *.avi as system:filetype:avi - *.wmv as system:filetype:wmv - *.mov as system:filetype:mov In addition, the following types are recognized but I couldn't find any clever file formats to syndicate them with: The tag system:media:image includes: - *.jpg as system:filetype:jpg - *.jpeg as system:filetype:jpeg - *.gif as system:filetype:gif - *.png as system:filetype:png The tag system:media:document includes: - *.pdf as system:filetype:pdf - *.doc as system:filetype:doc What about *.swf for shockwave flash? I know that I tend to bookmark some flash pages directly, and bypass the container page sometimes. -- R.B. Boyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://chaotic.nexusvector.net/ ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [delicious-discuss] Idea of input interface: source and larger extended field
On 6/12/05, Joshua Schachter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been thinking of allowing a URL as a tag, but this gets complicated very quickly and I have not yet thought out all the implications. Actually, can't we already use a URL as a tag? There's nothing I can find currently that constrains me from tagging with, say, source::http://zamiel.livejournal.com; for example. If folks want to communally start using that format and post-processing on that tag-format, I don't see any reason they shouldn't. As I see it, that kind of embedding isn't the responsibility of the tag embedding engine, but of the presentation engine, which is a seperate beast altogether. This is currently a database limitation; I am looking at extending it. It is constrained mainly because the tool is designed to let you cue your memory with some notes, not be a full blog (which is what it will become if we make it larger. People will ask for markup and so on. What does the interface look like? How would it get displayed? How do I prevent griefers? And so on. So, just specify its 1024 characters long and cannot contain HTML markup. In this case, its a matter of fiat as much as it is of definition. You could leave the field length just as it is, if you really wanted to, if, as another poster put it below, you were to give some better feedback on how much space there is on entry. But I'm with others in wanting a somewhat larger field. (For full blogging-like tagging, Wetaste (http://www.wetaste.com/taste.php) allows full-form notation and markup ...) (Unrelated, and possibly outside your control, but can we get the ML's default reply-to set to the list and not to the poster. Its most annoying.) -- Alexander Williams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Proprietor of the Squid's Redoubt (http://chancel.org:8000/Redoubt) ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [delicious-discuss] Idea of input interface: source and larger extended field
Hello Alexander, --- Alexander \SquidLord\ Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pietro: I read your proposal with great interest, but I don't think the idea of tagging with an approximated power set/cloud really matches the expectation of how people actually tag. I know its not how I tag, if it matters. Are you sure? I mean, you use many tags and for sure some are mor important than others. If we approximate a list with a power law, and we define the steepness to be a function of the lenght of the list, then the power law is bound not to be very steep for the small list we are used too. Also on LJ you use the memory function. I use to have a lj too. AT the time, on lj you were allowed to only use 5 terms. For the rest they were similar to tags. If you need to use only one term what will you use? (put that in the first place) Only two terms what will you use (add those two as the second and third terms). And so on. It is actually very intuitive: use all the terms that are relevant and (if possible) use them in order of importance. If thay are not in the correct order it's not the end of the world. Those tools are designed to be flexible. But I try to be more specific later. Essentially, the difficulty is the issue of order in terms of my conception. If I tag a post as fiction, prose, science, I'm not trying to say that the fact its prose fiction is more important than the fact it's about science. On the contrary, I CAN'T say, because that meaning is ultimately in the mind of the community as a whole, not in my perception. On the other hand we know that for each URL delicious returns us with a tagcloud which is just a position in an n-dimensional hypercube. Imagine only three terms, and 5 URLs as 5 points inside this cube. Delicious provides you with the info of where the url is. Which than let you do neat things, like fine neighboring URLs. I think there is nothing wrong in giving to users the possibility to point to which area of the cube they see the URL as belonging. Maybe there are better ways to do that. Maybe it would be better to introduce also parenthesis: so (fiction, prose), science means fiction and prose are equally important. And the interesting thing is that people could choose to insert this information or not. Some people would not care to insert the tags in an order, and delicious would still work fine. Some people would insert the order to specify the rough position in the hipercube, and they could use metric among their own URLs, and delicious would also work fine And finally some people could use the order and the parenthesis and the position in the hipercube would be even more precise. The way in which it is coded is not really important, I suggested to use the order because it seemed to me sensible, easy, ignorable at the beginning, and would give a rough idea of where in the hypercube a URL would be. What instead I consider important is: give to the users the possibility to specify the position more precisely. By assuming my tag set is really a cloud, you're injecting meaning where there really isn't any. Further, if Del started assuming tags are input as clouds rather than sets, it would actually limit my expressibility. I can't say, in such a context, that an entity is equally two or more (or potentially a lot more) things; there's an implicit hierarchy. I thought we were trying to get away from preconceived hierarchies? my view: We are trying to build a tool that works. This at the moments seem to suggest that we should avoid preconceived hierarchies. As a way, not as an aim. I don't see why letting people specify where in the n-dimensional hipercube the URL lives would induce a hierarchy. (beside the point that it would be an 'induced hierarchy for each user' and not a 'preconceived hierarchy equal for everybody'). Even if you decide to tag every 'python' snippet of code as 'python programming' and every Cpp as 'Cpp programming' you could still tag a paper that discuss programming, in particular python as 'programming python'. It is the lack of considering the order that, by collapsing the space of possibilities, induces a hierarchy. Not the reverse. And in fact del induces a hierarchy, and you know it, since you are using the mindmap maker which has been designed using that intuition. From my perspective, the tag cloud as an entity can ONLY occur post hoc, once the community has commented on the nature of the entity with tag sets. Assuming (or even requiring) that the attached notation is a cloud rather than a set invalidates a lot of the meaning you can derive from the resulting hypercloud. Hmm, why? The sum of tag clouds is a tag cloud. It might be a different tag cloud, mapping the same URL to a different position, but I don't see why it would hold less information, or less relevant one. It means LESS that, knowing the annotations are clouds, that the word that comes up most often first is
Re: [delicious-discuss] media support
hello, install this greasemonkey script : http://www.codewitch.org/archives/2005/05/turn_firefox_in.html (Turn FireFox into a Web JukeBox) and go to this page http://del.icio.us/tag/system:filetype:mp3+jazz and listen :) aurelien On 6/12/05, Joshua Schachter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bookmarked items in del.icio.us that end in one of a number of filetypes will now automatically get some system tags added. You can use these just like normal tags. The tag system:media:video includes - *.mp3 as system:filetype:mp3 - *.wav as system:filetype:wav The tag system:media:video includes - *.mpg as system:filetype:mpg - *.mpeg as system:filetype:mpeg - *.avi as system:filetype:avi - *.wmv as system:filetype:wmv - *.mov as system:filetype:mov Examples: - ALL music items on delicious http://del.icio.us/tag/system:media:audio - mp3s tagged as mashups http://del.icio.us/tag/system:filetype:mp3+mashups - ALL video items on delicious http://del.icio.us/tag/system:media:video RSS feeds that have one of those system tags added will automatically become a rss-with-enclosures file. Examples: - ALL music items on delicious as a podcast http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/system:media:audio - mp3s tagged as mashups as a podcast http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/system:filetype:mp3+mashups - ALL video items on delicious as a podcast http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/system:media:video (a nice client for this is ANT at http://www.antisnottv.net/) I also wrote a quick hack to show some recent mp3s at: http://del.icio.us/feeds/m3u/all.m3u ... I'll be extending the m3u/pls?/etc support for tags and users and so on later. In addition, the following types are recognized but I couldn't find any clever file formats to syndicate them with: The tag system:media:image includes: - *.jpg as system:filetype:jpg - *.jpeg as system:filetype:jpeg - *.gif as system:filetype:gif - *.png as system:filetype:png The tag system:media:document includes: - *.pdf as system:filetype:pdf - *.doc as system:filetype:doc -j -- joshua schachter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://del.icio.us ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[delicious-discuss] Anonymous and Private posting
I think it would be beneficial to allow users to post certain things anonymously, and to keep certain bookmarks private . Perhaps this could be done using tags named private or anonymous or something. When posting privately, it should only allow the user who posted it to see it, and then only when logged in. This would allow users to bookmark pages that they don't want the rest of the world seeing. Like confidential documents that for some reason or another don't have a password on them. Posting anonymously would still allow it to be shown on the front page, and under tag searches, but it would not show who posted it. Of course with this it would probably have to work similarly to private posting when showing it on the users page. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [delicious-discuss] Anonymous and Private posting
Privacy is on the todo list. The main impediment right now is that it would take about four hours of downtime to modify the site, and I am not anxious to bring down the site again so soon after I brought it down once before. Anonymous isn't going to happen, sorry. -j -- joshua schachter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://del.icio.us On Sun, 12 Jun 2005, Raymond Dubisky wrote: I think it would be beneficial to allow users to post certain things anonymously, and to keep certain bookmarks private . Perhaps this could be done using tags named private or anonymous or something. When posting privately, it should only allow the user who posted it to see it, and then only when logged in. This would allow users to bookmark pages that they don't want the rest of the world seeing. Like confidential documents that for some reason or another don't have a password on them. Posting anonymously would still allow it to be shown on the front page, and under tag searches, but it would not show who posted it. Of course with this it would probably have to work similarly to private posting when showing it on the users page. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[delicious-discuss] system:language?
Would it be possible for del.icio.us to have a new system tag organised by language, such as system:language:eo (for all Esperanto pages)? The problem would be detecting the page's language, not all pages declare it in the HTML tag... -- Dante dantecubed.com: Web Design, Development more [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ discuss mailing list discuss@del.icio.us http://lists.del.icio.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss
