[Zen] Re: The Seeds of Our Actions
---The consequences of action manifest themselves in the moment that action is done. However too often we are too close to subject (ourselves) to see it happening. A criminal who gets away with a crime spends the rest of his life looking over his shoulder form that exact moment. Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Fa Jian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How is it that harmful results follow from harmful actions? It is by the force of an imprint placed on our mind that the potential to experience future suffering comes about. For example, a person who commits murder plants a very strong negative impression on his or her own mind and that impression, or seed, carries with it the potential to place that mind in a state of extreme misery. Unless the impression of that non- virtuous action is purified this latent seed will remain implanted in the mind, its power dormant but unimpaired. When the appropriate circumstances are eventually met, the potential power of this impression will be activated and the seed will ripen as an experience of intense suffering. . . . The situation is analogous to that of an arid piece of ground into which seeds were placed a long time ago. As long as these seeds are not destroyed somehow, they will retain their potential to grow. Should the ground be watered sufficiently these long-forgotten seeds will suddenly sprout forth. In a similar fashion our karmic actions plant their seeds in the field of our consciousness and when we encounter the proper conditions these seeds will sprout and bear their karmic fruit. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Meaningful to Behold from Everyday Mind, a Tricycle book edited by Jean Smith No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 11/29/07 11:10 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Caveat Emptor
---So the question remains. Are you going to change the behavior or continue to revel in it? Seeing the problem and not taking action is unfortunate. Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There you go again, Al... Did you not invite direct email in a prior post? Yes, a discussion of various topics in a park can be invigorating and useful, but mere mortals with ego's such as mine, still ask for a little respect in such an exchange. A true practitioner can acknowledge an insult, and let it go. An amature such as I, will react to dis-respect as if it is a water, manifesting a negative seed in my store-consciousnes. Thank you, my friends, for bringing forth these deep-routed seeds, so they may bloom and be dealt with in the presence of being. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Al actionheroes@ wrote: From: cid830 And to Al... I feel you have mocked the practice in prior postings, if I am wrong, I do apologize. Who made you the Pope of Zen? Am I being excommunicated? Are you the person that sent me the nasty email about a week ago? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Not Caveat Emptor
---Ah, better question. Yes you can practice Zen without offically becoming a Buddhist. but I wouldn't get so stuck on the semantics. I am a budhist, I'm not a Buddhist; eh, makes no difference to the path. Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike and Guy, Thank you for your responses. Let me ask this question a different way: Can you practice zen without being buddhist? If no, why? If not, why? Thanks...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: The heart of the subject is the same. anatmanwave anatmanwave@ wrote: ---Same thing, Zen comes from Chan from the Chinese, they morphed it from India. Just a matter of semantics but subject is the same. Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Smart BillSmart@ wrote: What is the relationship, if any, between zen and buddhism? - Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Caveat Emptor
---Once a Zen monk was weighing flax for sale in the market Another monk approaches and ask,Show me your Zen. First monk replies,This flax weighs six pounds What a direct pointing..Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, anatmanwave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ---lol,in the cleaning of it at least.Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Good idea! It's probably down the back of the sofa. anatmanwave anatmanwave@ wrote: ---You want to know what Zen is? Clean your house. Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Smart BillSmart@ wrote: I think so too - and if that's the case I'd like to make the most of this stop. I know there are many other 'lurking' out there, but not posting. That's okay, but I'd like to see more people actively participating in the forum. I've started a thread NOT CAVEAT EMPTOR in which I hope to explore with others just what we think zen is, and is not. Please join us. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, daniel sherwood desherwood7@ wrote: If I can add something here, I believe we're all on a spiritual journey and this group is one of stops along the way. Danny - Original Message From: Bill Smart BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:47:42 AM Subject: [Zen] Caveat Emptor I recently made some postings that caused some participants unpleasantness. Sometimes that's okay, and I certainly have been know to purposely rattle a few cages, but in these recent postings that was not my intent. So...I would like to clarify my past and future postings as follows: I do not own this forum, so cannot exclude anyone. For the most part I wouldn't want to exclude anyone, with the possible exception of those that blatantly post marketing material. Al, the forum moderator, can exclude participants, but I have not known of a case in the past 3 or 4 years that he has done so. We all participate in this forum voluntarily. Some particpate very seriously, some jokingly. Some, like me, participate sometimes seriously, and sometimes jokingly. I offer no apologies for this. Most importantly, you should not depend on this forum for spritual or other advice. Do not believe everything you read here, or anywhere for that matter. Believe in youself. Just sit. If you're lucky enough to have found a good teacher or group with which to participate, beleive in them with all your heart. They will help you in your practice. Enlightenment is a product of the desire of the student, not the skill of the teacher. A earnest teacher cannot lead a false student to enlightenment. On the other hand a earnest student can become enlighted under a false teacher; or without a teacher at all. Just sit. ...Bill! __ _ __ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Caveat Emptor
---Maybe it's not as obvious as I thought. The monk clearly showed his practice. Just thought it would supplement the cleaning behind the couch thing Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess you had to be there... anatmanwave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ---Once a Zen monk was weighing flax for sale in the market Another monk approaches and ask,Show me your Zen. First monk replies,This flax weighs six pounds What a direct pointing..Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, anatmanwave anatmanwave@ wrote: ---lol,in the cleaning of it at least.Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Good idea! It's probably down the back of the sofa. anatmanwave anatmanwave@ wrote: ---You want to know what Zen is? Clean your house. Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Smart BillSmart@ wrote: I think so too - and if that's the case I'd like to make the most of this stop. I know there are many other 'lurking' out there, but not posting. That's okay, but I'd like to see more people actively participating in the forum. I've started a thread NOT CAVEAT EMPTOR in which I hope to explore with others just what we think zen is, and is not. Please join us. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, daniel sherwood desherwood7@ wrote: If I can add something here, I believe we're all on a spiritual journey and this group is one of stops along the way. Danny - Original Message From: Bill Smart BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:47:42 AM Subject: [Zen] Caveat Emptor I recently made some postings that caused some participants unpleasantness. Sometimes that's okay, and I certainly have been know to purposely rattle a few cages, but in these recent postings that was not my intent. So...I would like to clarify my past and future postings as follows: I do not own this forum, so cannot exclude anyone. For the most part I wouldn't want to exclude anyone, with the possible exception of those that blatantly post marketing material. Al, the forum moderator, can exclude participants, but I have not known of a case in the past 3 or 4 years that he has done so. We all participate in this forum voluntarily. Some particpate very seriously, some jokingly. Some, like me, participate sometimes seriously, and sometimes jokingly. I offer no apologies for this. Most importantly, you should not depend on this forum for spritual or other advice. Do not believe everything you read here, or anywhere for that matter. Believe in youself. Just sit. If you're lucky enough to have found a good teacher or group with which to participate, beleive in them with all your heart. They will help you in your practice. Enlightenment is a product of the desire of the student, not the skill of the teacher. A earnest teacher cannot lead a false student to enlightenment. On the other hand a earnest student can become enlighted under a false teacher; or without a teacher at all. Just sit. ...Bill! __ _ __ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Zen Koans
---I've taken the time to figure out a few, once you get it it makes perfect sense. The reason they may seem confusing is they attempt to break the patterns of logical thought. In Rinzai they would say use yourHeart mind I believe. Like with the story of the monk and his flax. The answer isn't in the verbal but something else... Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I realize that there are many interesting stories about Zen Koans. I have found it to be very entertaining reading. However, some of the koans make me wonder if they do not have to be interpreted based on a culture of alcoholism and illiteracy which existed back in those days? Some of those stories only make sense if the people involved had been drinking heavily. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Zen Koans
---And Al, how would you know that? Furthermore have you not noticed me pointing to something as I belieive I put it, other than verbal? Explain to the musician. him knew it, but him can't do it. Bob Marley (thud of gauntlet being dropped)Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: anatmanwave ---I've taken the time to figure out a few, once you get it it makes perfect sense. If they make perfect sense then you are not getting it. It is not supposed to make sense or to be logical or to be understandable in any way that you can explain with words. That is why the old zen monks always carried around a stick so they could make their point by hitting people in the right place at the precise moment. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Reality
If there is something wrong with reality whatever's wrong is not reality Just a thesis, but it fels right. guy Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Zen Koans
---Ah, now I see.The way of the Samurai(movies) :p Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: anatmanwave ---And Al, how would you know that? My study of Zen is limited to Japanese samurai movies and especially the Blind Samurai (Zatoichi). I choose not to read zen books any more. I gave many away and sold the rest on ebay. Zatoichi is easier to understand and much more entertaining than Bankei or Dogen. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Zen Koans
--- Just be with the smell of shit till i can get off. This is the reality of the situation. Maybe offer the guy a few kind words, I could only imagine his mortification. Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When the old drunk guy sitting next to you on the train farts and shits himself and the odour fills the carriage - are you going to cleanse your chakras or what else are you going to do? Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Koan is for the practitioners to wake to the fact that we are enslaved by our mind. Such that we could open our Inner Self and be in touch the real form of the universe, which is the invisible life force and wisdom of the universe in a complete separate domain from the domain of the consciousness. That's my witness. Fa Jian wrote: A Koan is a story, dialogue, question or statement in the history and lore of Zen, generally containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational understanding, yet that may be accessible to intuition. A famous Koan is, Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand? (oral tradition, attributed to Hakuin Ekaku, 1686-1769, considered a reviver of the Koan tradition in Japan). _ From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 07:00 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Zen Koans I realize that there are many interesting stories about Zen Koans. I have found it to be very entertaining reading. However, some of the koans make me wonder if they do not have to be interpreted based on a culture of alcoholism and illiteracy which existed back in those days? Some of those stories only make sense if the people involved had been drinking heavily. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.6/1193 - Release Date: 12/22/2007 14:02 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.6/1193 - Release Date: 12/22/2007 14:02 - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Zen Koans
The Absolute and the Reletive truths are not conditional, it is not about our understanding. they exist, whether we get it or not. And we are not seperate from this, never said that. I might say that the objective of Zen and human existence on a fundemental level are one and the same, not some enlightened state off in another dimension seperate from others. and if you question my understanding of the self, check my screen name again.. Wherever i look I can't find me. The Reletive truth is that things exist here and now in this exact moment, not the moment ahead or behind. Form springing up from the Universe. It's why the Zen student who stunned his toe exlaimed I will not be fooled again The Absolute truth is that all things, one thing; therefore no thing. The Universe springing from form. Sure, but where did you learn that? Which world do you see without your eyes? What truths did you learn without teachers? See, if you truly understand the nature of reality, you also realize that thought is both liberation and cage... The more one argues for a univberse that springs from form without individual identity the more you have refuted the argument that you are trying to put forth. One cannot shout for silence and be in harmony. Dude, I'm not even sure how to respond to this. you start off agreeing with me then attack me, but not the statement. Now you can say whatever you want, don't care. but at least refute the statement while your at it to show me why Im bullshit. Further,You seem to be caught in extremism. Words and concepts are the way we communicate. If we were face to face, maybe that would be different. Maybe not. But this would be a boring group if no one ever spoke, really wouldn't be a group. So it comes down to this, it is good to be able to clear one's mind and be present, however, real life demands working with others. Thought and words are tools, merely that. It is right understanding of the situation. When I used the word springs i used it to illustrate we were talking about one truth and not the other. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Absolute is the reletive, the reletive the absolute. It is not my postion the universe springs from us, as this is totally not true. It is not my concept of the universe but the universe itself before me, directly experienced. When I say Universe I do not mean the stars and planets, i mean what they are and all things are. no thing. all is impermenent, what is the nature of form? emptiness. Absolute truth. Form, or reletive truth, is merely fine particulants of the universe coming together at a point and time. AKA, Skandhas. Trash heaps. Anatman. Big jade stupa. I appreciate what you are saying, but your writing was based on a supposition, a construct of what if? This allowed me to respond as if the nature of the problem was rooted in thought, not in actuality. Fair game. The process would have been very different had you expressed the discussion from some specific experience that was actual...then we are finitely limited to thoughts and decisions that could in reality have been taken then, or things one could do now to make things better. But, if any of my students ever pose a thought experiment what-if, I am certainly going to expose the fallacy of such arguemnts with the Zen discipline that I used with my response. If a student asked me, Zenbob, what if I were on a boat with only one life preserver, the boat was sinking, and there were women and children on board, to whom should I throw the life preserver? I would respond with, Toss them all life preservers! What kind of cruel person imagines a boat with only one life preserver when it has women and children as passengers? Or I could say, You only need to remind them to fly from the boat, as each of us is actually a beautiful bird. That is Zen, folks. I think the process might have been different fi you had of responded initially by saying, I would have handed him some TP. That would trump my kind words, as I usually don't carry TP around. Guy :) In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirbo zen2wrk@ wrote: On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:34:32 -0800, anatmanwave anatmanwave@ wrote: ---If there is no train what just ran over my foot? Now there is a foot, too? I answer in the reletive, you come back in the absolute. Not absolutely...I realize that everything is to a degree relative, and I did not intend for the comment(s) to sound absolutist, but to offer some talking points on the underlying Buddhist approach of example via KOANS, since that was the essential topic. I fully understand the concept of mental constructs(?). We create our universe in every moment. But it is the action we take not our understanding of the situation
[Zen] Re: Are babies enlightened?
---Good question. Put me through some real soul searching,lol. Yes, all beings are inherently awakened. It is more a matter of wiping away the dust from our eyes than any attainment. Ego deludes us into a sense of self, but this is an illusion. Dissolving the self disolves the dust. So is it possible all beings arrive at an actualized awakening? Establishment of a will to the truth is hard to come by, the world twist in samsara. And even with a cessation of suffering there is no end to suffering. So the opportunity to misstep from the path is before us every moment. Even Buddhas are susceptible to suffering. I cannot claim to have the answer here, I suspect it truly has no answer. All I can do is go forward and assist the world and the people in it. In gassho, Guy In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, sungmanitu28 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: During his Dharma talk yesterday, my Roshi was discussing the Bodhisattva vow and how a Bodhisattva promises not to leave Samsara until all beings reach enlightenment. He then indicated how difficult this would be since, even is all adults were enlightened as soon as a baby was born there was another being that needed to be enlightened. This got me to thinking and I wondered whether babies are not already enlightened. Is enlightenment no the absence of attachment and desire? A baby does not have any real attachment or desire when they are first born. Of course they have hunger and quickly develop attachment to their parents. However, does hunger count, surely the Buddha was hungry, he ate. Are babies, at the first moment of birth, not already enlightened beings? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
