I look forward to this
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > biodiesel in the main tank, wvo in the secondary tank. life is beautiful. > stay tuned for an article on Greg Yohn's new '98 VW Jetta SVO/WVO > conversion. > > > Steve Spence > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: > http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm > > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ > Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - > http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 1:13 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] SVO versus BD > > > > Thanks for the useful information and the links > > > > Reinhard > > > > "Darren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > I strongly agree with Keith. SVO vs biodiesel? Neither should be > > > dismissed each has it's place. Is very dependant on the individual > > > situation:- > > > What engine? > > > Resources available for processing oils or converting vehicles. > > > Vehicle use patterns. > > > Vehicle operator/owners preference > > > etc. etc. > > > Clearly biodiesel has the greatest short term opportunities especially > for > > > transportation fuels. > > > There has been many reports of successful SVO systems and trouble free > use. > > > There have also been problems reported but this is not exclusive to SVO > > > use - biodiesel users especially home brewers encounter problems also. > > > The main difference as I see it is that biodiesel fuel has been > extensively > > > researched world wide in many different engines and made from many > different > > > oil feedstock's. SVO especially WVO use remains a bit of a grey area as > far > > > as hard scientific research goes. I have seen many studies looking at > > > vegetable oils suitability. Most conclude SVO is to thick and brush it > > > aside as unsuitable and instead study biodiesel. There are a few good > > > studies of SVO out there on the web: (not many that cover pre heating > the > > > oil) > > > > > > -The much touted ACREVO project report - very good detailed research. > > > > > > http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm > > > > > > -Available on the web but I don't have the link handy..... should be > able to > > > find it with a search engine (good news for IDI's running in Africa!!!!) > > > > > > FACT-Vol. 12. Solid Fuel Conversion > > > for the Transportation Sector > > > ASME 1991 > > > TECHNICAL OVERVIEW OF VEGETABLE OIL > > > AS A TRANSPORTATION FUEL > > > Charles L. Peterson and Dick L. Auld > > > Department of Agricultural Engineering > > > University of Idaho > > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > -Biocar site has a thesis research project into the use of their kit to > run > > > SVO. > > > In German http://www.biocar.de/ > > > Part English translation http://www.vegburner.co.uk/biocar.html (thank > you > > > Stephan) > > > > > > -Ed Beggs has his "Renewable Oil Fuels..." thesis available on his site > > > http://www.biofuels.ca > > > > > > -Another one that I haven't got the link handy.... > > > Waste Vegetable Oil As A Diesel Replacement Fuel > > > Phillip Calais* and AR (Tony) Clark** > > > * Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ** Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Plenty more that go into blending vegetable oil with solvents, diesel, > > > petrol etc. More information on SVO and WVO use is required. Does > anyone > > > know of any other scientific reports of SVO use or any studies in > progress? > > > > > > There is the very useful FMSO Database of SVO vehicles in German. A > great > > > resource worth a look even if you can't read German http://www.fmso.de/ > > > click on the "Mehr als 300 Autos in der: Fahrzeugdatenbank!" link > > > > > > Darren Hill > > > www.vegburner.co.uk > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: 09 July 2002 18:33 > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] SVO versus BD > > > > > > > > > Reinhard Henning wrote: > > > > > > >Albert Einstein often said: "Use the simplest thing that works, as > > > >long as it's the best thing." > > > > > > The proviso is critical, and in many cases it's context- sensitive - I > > > believe this is the case with the biodiesel vs SVO argument. In the > > > end it boils down to a matter of particular circumstances and > > > individual preferences. > > > > > > >This in mind one should compare the two actual possibilities to use > > > >plant oil as fuel: > > > > > > > >1) adaptation of the oil to the engine (bio-diesel, BD) > > > >2) modification of the engine to run on pure plant oil (straight > > > >vegetable oil, svo) > > > > > > > >Plant oil is pure stored solar energy in its densiest form (9,2 kg > > > >/l). It contains only the elements carbon C, hydrogen H and oxygen > > > >O. In the simplest way it is produced only by grinding of seeds and > > > >pressing (ram presses, expellers) it. Purification by sedimentation > > > >and / or filtration: Can somebody imagine a simpler method of > > > >producing highly concentrated, environmentally friendly energy. > > > > > > > >In a short term planning, it is interesting to use biodiesel, > > > >because you can use the already existing car engines. > > > > > > > >But in a longer perspective, it is more interesting to adapt the > > > >engines to run on pure plant oil (SVO). And you have all the > > > >advantages of an decentralized fuekl production. And you dont need a > > > >chemical workshop to produce your own fuele at home. A ram press for > > > >about 200 $ and some plastc barrel is all you need. > > > > > > That is not convincing Reinhard. In the future more diesels will > > > probably be adapted to SVO use, but that will leave millions of > > > vehicles all over the world not so adapted, bringing us back to the > > > same choice between making biodiesel and rigging a two-tank system > > > with heating etc to use SVO... on some vehicles, maybe not on others, > > > whereas biodiesel will work in any diesel. > > > > > > There is also a shortage of good, long-term studies on the effects of > > > using SVO, unlike with biodiesel, and no long-term studies on the use > > > of WVO that I'm aware of. None of the European manufacturers of SVO > > > systems covers the use of WVO, right? > > > > > > Biodiesel also gives you the advantage of decentralised fuel production. > > > > > > There is no need to have a chemical workshop to produce biodiesel at > > > home. It is simple. > > > > > > $200 would more than cover the costs of everything needed to make > > > biodiesel, and no need for a ram press. > > > > > > >For the mean time, you can convert your diesel engines into plant > > > >oil engines (the still run on diesel). The conversion kits are not > > > >expensive, but they are a bit different for one engine or the other. > > > >(The Mercedes 123 engine doesn't have to be modified at all. You > > > >just run it with SVO. If its cold, you add some diesel. > > > > > > Some kits are better than others. Some kits are not to be recommended > > > at all. Some manufacturers claim their kits are suitable for any > > > diesel in any climate, using WVO, and this is not true. But people > > > buy these kits anyway, and there are plenty of stories of ruined > > > pumps. Again, I know of no such stories with biodiesel use. > > > > > > And WVO remains a problem. If this valuable waste resource, used by > > > many or most small-scale biodiesel makers, is to be used in straight > > > SVO systems it has to be pre-treated, with not much less processing > > > required than that needed to make biodiesel. And you still won't have > > > the guaranteed results that biodiesel will give you. > > > > > > >In Germany, the producer of the tractors for agriculture are already > > > >very interested to offer SVO-versions of their diersel engines to > > > >the farmers (Deutz, John Deere). So in a short future, probably the > > > >truck engine producers will do the same and later the car engine > > > >producers. > > > > > > Which still leaves the older motors, especially in the Third World. > > > > > > >Another important argument for the use of SVO instead of BD is the > > > >energy input for its production. With BD it is about 1/3, i.e. you > > > >need about 30% of the energy of 1 litre of BD to produce 1 litre of > > > >BD (in form of Merthanol or aethanol, chemicals, > > > >destillation/purification). > > > > > > That depends very much on how it's done, and in what setting. > > > > > > >For the production of SVO you need only about 15 % (12 % for > > > >agriculture, 3 % for oil extraction). If you use ecological advanced > > > >production methods, you can reduce these 12 % considerably. > > > > > > Your second sentence applies to on-farm biodiesel production too. > > > > > > I have some arguments with Schrimpff's chart as well. > > > > > > >Ernst Schrimpff of the Tecnical College of Weihenstephan, Germany, > > > >listed 8 parameters to compare SVO with BD. Here his list (partly): > > > > > > > >see also the attachment or: > > > > > > > >http://jatropha.org/p-o-engines/svo-bd-characteristics.htm > > > > > > > > Plant oil (SVO) biodiesel (BD) > > > > > > > >1) Physical characteristics: > > > > > > > >physical density 0,90 - 0,92 0,88 > > > > > > > >viscosity 60 - 80 7 - 8 > > > > > > > >ignition point > 220 135 > > > > > > > >2) Chemical characteristics: > > > > > > > >phosphate mg/kg < 15 < 15 > > > > > > > >sulphur mg/kg < 10 < 10 > > > > > > > >Chem. reaction neutral, very low > > > > hygroscopic, solvent, fast reaction > > > > > > > >3) Production: > > > > > > > >principle decentralized small > > > > central, big industrial units > > > > > > The biodiesel entry here is wrong - it should read the same as for > > > SVO: decentralized small. > > > > > > > oil expellers > > > >chemical compounds needed - > > > > methanol, potassium hydroxyd > > > > > > > >energy input 12 % 29 % > > > > > > Questionable. > > > > > > >5) Transport / storage no risk small risk > > > > > > In the US, no risk. > > > > > > >6) Environment > > > > > > > >biol. degradation very fast delayed > > > > > > The EPA findings contradict this. You can find this information via > > > the NBB site. > > > > > > >danger to water no small > > > > > > The EPA findings contradict this too. Biodiesel is used for > > > remediating oil spills after all. Whereas rapeseed oil can be highly > > > destructive in a water spill. > > > > > > >human toxicity regularly no toxic > > > > (or small) > > > > > > Not so - biodiesel is non-toxic, again according to the EPA. > > > > > > >material circuit complete > > > > difficult to realize > > > > > > > >7) Social acceptability > > > > > > > >strategy small, decentralized big, central > > > > > > Wrong: read "small, decentralized" for biodiesel. > > > > > > >logistics simple komplex > > > > > > Not so - the many thousands of people with no technical or chemistry > > > qualifications all over the world who're successfully making their > > > own biodiesel testify to that. And I reject the argument that they > > > cannot make a quality product - they do make a quality product. > > > > > > >transportation short distances long distances > > > > > > Not so: read "short distances" for biodiesel. Should really be short > > > or zero distance for both. > > > > > > >vulnerability small higher > > > > > > Based on what? > > > > > > >regional income high low > > > >generation > > > > > > Not so - biodiesel is an excellent candidate for micro-regional > > > production efforts, with great local benefits. > > > > > > >8) Costs > > > > > > > >fuel production 0,25 - 0,40 > > > > 0,45 - 0,60 US$ > > > > > > > >fuel prices 0,45 - 0,55 > > > > 0,70 - 0,85 US$ > > > > > > Neither of these apply to small-scale local brewers. > > > > > > This is perhaps a more useful (and simpler) chart than Schrimpff's: > > > > > > Needs processing > > > Biodiesel Yes > > > SVO/WVO Less > > > > > > Guaranteed trouble-free > > > Biodiesel Yes > > > SVO/WVO No > > > > > > Engine conversion > > > Biodiesel No > > > SVO/WVO Yes > > > > > > Cheaper > > > Biodiesel Sometimes > > > SVO/WVO Usually > > > > > > I've had this argument here before. I'll probably be accused of > > > favouring biodiesel over SVO. In fact I favour neither, or rather > > > both. As I said at the start, it depends on the circumstances and > > > individual preferences. > > > > > > There are two pages at Journey to Forever where this choice is > > > discussed - here: > > > Three choices > > > 1. Mixing it > > > 2. Straight vegetable oil > > > 3. Biodiesel > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#3choices > > > > > > ... and, in somewhat more detail, here, at the page you reffed below > > > (thanks!): > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html > > > Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: > > > Guide to using vegetable oil as diesel fuel > > > SVO systems > > > References > > > SVO vs biodiesel in Europe > > > European SVO resources > > > Diesel information > > > Fats and oils > > > > > > I rather agree that SVO will probably be the fuel of the future, but > > > I see that future as more distant than most SVO proponents tend to > > > see it. I would say that SVO use is still at an experimental stage > > > and needs quite a lot of further development. Most of all it needs > > > long-term tests of various kinds, and, since some motors are more > > > suitable than others (which is not the case with biodiesel), it needs > > > quite a lot of different tests. > > > > > > So I'm very much in favour of SVO, but I think it's an exaggeration > > > to pretend that it's a mature, assured technology, as many do. > > > > > > In fact I really reject this whole argument about biodiesel vs SVO. > > > It's a choice, an informed decision to make, but there should not be > > > any opposition, the two are complementary. There's a lot of > > > unjustified biodiesel-bashing by the SVO camp in Europe especially, > > > and I think it's ridiculous - it's ridiculous that there are two such > > > camps. Perhaps it's because biodiesel is more industrialised there, > > > as is also happening in the US - but that does NOT exclude small > > > producers and home-producers. > > > > > > Biodiesel and SVO are in the SAME camp, please - it's the fossil-fuel > > > interests that are in the opposite camp. Good heavens. > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Keith Addison > > > Journey to Forever > > > Handmade Projects > > > Osaka, Japan > > > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > > > > > > > > >Interesting links to this SVO - DB - discussion are: > > > > > > > >http://www.vegburner.co.uk > > > > > > > >http://www.pflanzenoel-motor.de (German) > > > > > > > >http://jatropha.org/p-o-engines/conversion-cars.htm > > > > > > > >http://elsbett.com/emotanfr.htm > > > > > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html > > > > > > > >Kind regards > > > > > > > >Reinhard Henning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > >bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, > Germany > > > >Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >internet: www.bagani.de > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany > > Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > internet: www.bagani.de > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! 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