Todd,
You did not jump at me as I see it, you expressed an opinion and that I can live well with. It was the original response on my opinion that was a little bit personalized. My opinion, after many years of work, is that if you want to see fast and major changes on issues, financial success makes a very large difference. To advance the Bio fuel issue to the importance it will need to have, you will at the end see both big oil and the politicians involved. I hope it goes fast, the speed in Europe is somewhat faster than in the US. I am not sure that the farmer/producer will get the biggest bang for his buck, in the company of petrol distributors etc. If you look at the food production, it is not the case. The small ones that now operates at the margins of the market are probably financially better of in this situation. They have an incentive to keep it small, until they are large enough to play in a bigger market. Then they can sell themselves to the big interests at a premium price. This is how it works. Hakan At 11:35 PM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Hakan, > >Sorry. Didn't mean to "jump" ya'. Just that the status quo is >irksome. A whitewash....and all too often a greenwash. > >Actually, if a biodiesel manufacturer wanted to get the biggest >bang for his buck, he'd jump in bed with a petrol distributorship >and try to stretch it as far as he could. As far as total >reduction in emissions, better to go with a 20-75% biodiesel >content than 100%. But that requires also getting in bed with the >National Biodiesel Board here in the US, as the fuel is >classified as "on-road." > >For now it's just easier to sell in 250-500 quantities to farmers >and heavy equipment users. But like I mentioned, that starts to >bring into question some pretty relevant ethical issues....or at >least for me it does. > >Todd Swearingen > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:55 PM >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak > > > > > > > > Dear Todd, > > > > I have for more than 30 years been involved in energy >conservation > > in building constructions http://energysavingnow.com and what >you > > are bringing up is of utmost importance. It is however some >very > > important timing questions here. > > > > If you look at average lifetime for a car, it is around 10 >years and > > if you look at a building it is 100 years. Installations in >building have > > an average lifetime of 15 to 25 years. The popular AC units for >homes > > and small offices with rotation compressors have a lifetime of >8 years. > > It is many things in our environment that we can apply this on. >We must > > therefore select the things that can give large results on >short term. > > > > The majority of the worlds population, live without the above >things, > > but it is areas where it would be difficult to live without >heating or > > basic transport systems. It would also be difficult to feed the >worlds > > population without availability of energy. We will therefore >need to > > secure an efficient usage and renewable systems for the future. > > > > The lifestyle and waste of energy by less than 20% of the >worlds > > population is a considerable threat. It can not continue for >more than > > one century under all circumstances. The question is then if we >can > > turn this to a more positive situation and I belive that we can >do > > things in that direction. The first thing is to see that the >wasters > > waste less, but with the mentioned lifetimes of buildings and >systems, > > we are in a hurry and must carefully chose actions. > > > > The discussion have been bio fuels and taken together, I still >think that > > bio diesel is as close as we can get to a silver bullet. On the >savings > > side, large progress have been made in fuel efficiency already >(The > > VW/Audi diesel is one of the most efficient with 2.5-3 >liter/100km. I think > > that this is 100 mpg) Habits and unnecessary big cars can be >changed > > during one renewal cycle. Diesel engine in it self, constitute >a technology > > that give around 20% saving compared to a gasoline engine,. >Before it > > used to be 30% difference, but gasoline engines have improved >somewhat. > > On the distribution side, the current system will be used, the >investments > > must be made on growing, collection and processing. As I >pointed out > > before, this could even solve some large problems in the >agriculture > > subsidy policies. > > > > Why should we have a diversity on renewable fuels, when we did >not > > have it on fossil fuels? What we need is a fast implementation >and > > saving. Other alternatives like EV for cities will come, but >this > > we can let grow on us. > > > > My feeling is that we have a "ready to go" technology and let >us > > go as fast as possible. > > > > I do not think that I have much more to add and further >discussions > > from my side will not really contribute to the subject. I did >not choose to > > get in to the morality discussions, I was jumped at and >responded. > > I will continue to follow the discussions and if it is >interesting > > technical social subjects, I will maybe be lured to >participate. > > > > Hakan > > > > At 09:25 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > >Hakan, > > > > > >I find no dispute with the difficulties of integrating >biofuels > > >(or anything worthwhile) into existing markets. I never have. >Nor > > >do I find any dispute that biofuels pose significant benefits >to > > >society, no matter what level their use. > > > > > >But simply switching consumption of fuels from one form of > > >production to another is not, as I said before, a magic >bullet. > > >Either form of production requires large amounts of inputs - > > >energy, labor and economic. The most feasible method to reduce > > >the totality of these inputs (setting aside any technological > > >improvements in manufacturing) is to reduce consumption by > > >consumers. And the most feasible methods of reducing consumer >use > > >is to improve efficiency and to retrain the consumer populace >so > > >as to create different priorities than presently exist. > > > > > >Simply switching to biodiesel or ethanol does not change >volumes > > >of consumption. Simply switching fuel sources does not alter >fuel > > >economy, nor does it enhance efficient or conservative use - >the > > >three most demonstrative factors applicable to reducing > > >transportation energy demand. Switching to biofuels without >any > > >alteration in energy awareness and changes in consumption > > >patterns is a superficial "solution" which only stalls for a > > >brief period of time the inevitable consequences of energy > > >gluttony. > > > > > >As for select marketing of biofuels, what you refer to as > > >"dictatorial ambitions," there are considerable opportunities >to > > >legally select customer base. The discussion did not arise in > > >response to anyone's race, color, creed or physical >disposition. > > >It emerges out of concern for grossly evident lack of >principles > > >and ethics. Refusing loggers or construction companies as part >of > > >one's customer base or utilizing a tiered price structure, >based > > >upon pre-established environmental criteria, is not illegal. >Ad > > >hoc refusal and inequitable application is. > > > > > >And one seriously must ask the question...How does the benefit >of > > >producing biofuels outweigh the cost when selling 500 gallons >of > > >biodiesel to a customer who is known to clearcut and hill top > > >remove with complete disregard for everything but "financial > > >success?" > > > > > >Principles, ethics, morals and philosophy have a great deal >more > > >to do with markets and successful marketing than some people >care > > >to believe. > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > >Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 6:16 AM > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Todd, > > > > > > > > Bio fuels are the only thing that at least resembles a >silver > > >bullet > > > > for the transportation industry. As pointed out by an other > > >contributor, > > > > Europe is advancing this. Bio diesel seems to be the more > > >effective > > > > choice and the use of diesel engines is larger in Europe >than > > >US. > > > > > > > > The local job creation effect is also a great advantage for >any > > > > country that have the agricultural capacity to produce bio > > >fuel. It also > > > > shifts the traditional international market, to local >produce > > >of energy. > > > > It can also use existing distribution systems. For Europe >it is > > >also > > > > a way out of the faulty system of agriculture subsidies >etc.. > > >But it > > > > will also lead to a social restructuring again, with >movements > > >back > > > > to the country side. > > > > > > > > Europe have a taxation of fuel, were the price at the pump >have > > > > around 70% tax part. The theory around this was that it >would > > >force > > > > a development of more fuel efficient cars and voluntary > > >restrictions > > > > of use. It worked, but the weak point is that the >governments > > >become > > > > oil dependent, by having such a large part of indirect >taxes > > >coming from > > > > fuel. In fact, during the latest price crises, Blair in UK >came > > >out and > > > > refused to lower the taxes. The argument was the negative > > >effect this > > > > would have on financing the state services like hospitals >etc. > > > > > > > > Europe have a price structure that is perfect for >introducing > > >bio fuels, > > > > if the original theories would be adhered to. By easing > > >taxation, the > > > > price at the pump would not have to change by introducing >bio > > >fuels. > > > > The problem is the easing of taxation on fuels and to find > > >other ways > > > > to get the taxation, without political turmoil. Diesel is > > >easier because > > > > it already have tax exemptions and a lower tax. Heating oil > > >would be > > > > the easiest, since the taxes are low and the effect large. > > > > > > > > Bio fuels have to be integrated in a quite complicated > > >structure of > > > > vested interests, subsidies and taxes. To get farmers to > > >produce, will > > > > also need some special incentives or removal of incentives >that > > >now > > > > inhibits bio fuel production in large scale. We are not >only > > >talking about > > > > the technical feasibility, but also of the agricultural web >of > > >policies > > > > and politics. On top of this is the large oil companies >desires > > >to maintain > > > > their control of the energy business. > > > > > > > > It is going to be hard for new energy distributors to >emerge. > > >If those > > > > energy producers want to have selective choices of >customers it > > >will > > > > be harder. New producers and distributors will emerge >either in > > >an > > > > early stage and with the help of very conscious customers, >not > > >the > > > > mass market. Depending on the loopholes, when the web is > > >altered, > > > > it may be space for some new players. In some areas maybe >the > > > > society deliberately create the space for new local >players. > > >This > > > > because energy and fuels becomes a local produce, instead >of > > >the > > > > current international situation. > > > > > > > > Apart from my personal opinion about dictatorial ambitions, >I > > >do > > > > not think that the society will allow for selective >selling. In > > >fact, > > > > most democratic societies have laws against it. The only > > >possible > > > > manipulation can be done, if you have strong ownership of >the > > > > technology by patents and so forth. > > > > > > > > It is much more to say, but I will leave this subject here. > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 04:24 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >Hakan, > > > > > > > > > >I would hope that you could elaborate on your thought >process > > >as > > > > >to how delivery of biofuels to precise markets, preferably > > > > >markets that are already praciticing or exibiting "green > > > > >conscience," is a direct corollary to any historical oil > > >supply > > > > >restrictions initiated by Mid-East nation states and or >OPEC > > > > >nation states. > > > > > > > > > >There exist "rewards" marketwide for those who exibit >desired > > > > >behavior patterns, patterns that fall in line with > > >manufacturer's > > > > >and distributor's desired end results. "Sales" and price > > > > >incentives are used to maintain and/or induce consumption, > > > > >thereby maintaining demand for a manufacture's services. >Why > > > > >should biofuels manufacture and distribution not have its >own > > > > >incentives, following specific environmental ethics, > > >effectively > > > > >distributing to end users who are more inclined to a > > >sustainable > > > > >ethic than those who are not? > > > > > > > > > >This is not a political "game." It's a matter of principle >and > > > > >ethics. Let the manufacturer who is only concerned with > > >"monetary > > > > >utility" market to all who can pay the toll. Let the > > >manufacturer > > > > >who is concerned more with "environmental utility" select > > >and/or > > > > >groom his or her clientele to achieve the greatest gain in > > >that > > > > >direction. > > > > > > > > > >Unfortunately, many people believe that simple fixes, like > > > > >biofuels use rather than petrol, are some form of "magic >pill" > > > > >that solve the problems associated with energy. The sad >truth > > >of > > > > >the matter is that the consumption aspect of energy and >the > > >ends > > > > >to which the consumption is put to are considerably more > > > > >important than the energy issue itself. To not include a > > >cradle > > > > >to grave principled and ethical approach to biofuels > > >consumption > > > > >wherever possible is nothing more than the same form of > > > > >irresponsibility exhibited by the very idustry that >biofuels > > >is > > > > >perceived as demonizing. > > > > > > > > > >And not to be intentionally contrary, but I hesitate at >great > > > > >length to agree that "The only thing that counts at the >end is > > > > >financial success." I think the following expresses the > > >fallacy > > > > >of such an approach far better than my words might.... > > > > > > > > > >Only after the last tree has been cut down, > > > > >Only after the last river has been poisoned, > > > > >Only after the last fish has been caught, > > > > >Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten. > > > > > > > > > >Cree Indian prophecy. > > > > > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > >Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:49 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Todd, > > > > > > > > > > > > This kind of thinking is not productive and if applied, >it > > > > >would > > > > > > lead to unwanted side effects. It was the reason for >the > > >1973 > > > > > > oil crises and recently Saddam Hussein tried to pull it >off > > > > > > again. Who is the judge and who has the rights, for >sure it > > > > > > is neither Saddam Hussein nor US or indeed myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > We should keep away from political games, if we with > > > > >seriousness > > > > > > pursue sustainable energy alternatives. It is enough > > >politics, > > > > > > bad or good, in this world. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us make bio fuels to a blooming industry, >preferable in > > > > > > more hands than current petroleum industry. We need >some > > > > > > more independence from fossil fuels and if possible >from > > >the > > > > > > current petroleum industry. The only thing that counts >at > > >the > > > > > > end is financial success. That does not mean a low >price, > > >it > > > > > > is possible to find a lot of customers for high quality > > >also. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 01:18 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > >The real question is, "Should biofuels be used to >preserve > > >the > > > > > > >status quo with a "green conscience," or applied only >in > > >those > > > > > > >venues where consumers are already exercising a green > > > > > > >conscience?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In other words, should a biodiesel manufacturer sell >his > > >or > > > > >her > > > > > > >fuel to a construction company that removes mountain >tops > > >or > > > > > > >should it sell to construction firms that build in a > > > > > > >"sustainably" conservative fashion, blending into the > > > > >landscape? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel >to > > > > >logging > > > > > > >companies that wantonly practice clear cutting, or to > > > > >companies > > > > > > >that are acting cohesively within healthy land > > >"management" > > > > > > >guidelines? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel >to > > > > >farmers > > > > > > >who actively use biotech and implement soil depleting > > > > >practices, > > > > > > >or to farmers who are oriented to using less or no > > >chemicals > > > > >and > > > > > > >practicing more nurturing techniques? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Should a biodiesel manufacturer offer a discount to > > >automobile > > > > > > >owners who put the fuel into 50 mpg passenger cars and >a > > > > > > >dis-benefit to energy hogs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuels in pursuit of maintaining the status quo only > > >become > > > > >a > > > > > > >temporary stop gap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:26 AM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Keith, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point about oil reserves, is that it does not >matter > > >if > > > > >the > > > > > > >predictions > > > > > > > > are wrong with a few hundreds of percent, the >situation > > >is > > > > > > >fatal as it > > > > > > > > is. We share the opinion that, for many reasons, >big > > > > >efforts on > > > > > > >bio > > > > > > > > fuels must taken now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:44 PM 8/4/2002 +0900, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >womplex_oo1 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I've done several extrapolations of oil >consumption > > > > >using a > > > > > > > > > >spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information > > >provided by > > > > >BP > > > > > > >World Oil > > > > > > > > > >Statistics website: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A straight linear extrapolation of oil >consumption > > > > >indicates > > > > > > >that all > > > > > > > > > >the world's oil will run out between the years > > > > >2032-2045. > > > > > > >By "run > > > > > > > > > >out" I mean every last drop of oil gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Oil production does not support this linear > > > > >extrapolation > > > > > > >however. > > > > > > > > > >Production will reach a peak sometime before >these > > > > >terminal > > > > > > >years, > > > > > > > > > >and decrease exponentially forever after, >preventing > > > > >anyone > > > > > > >from ever > > > > > > > > > >extracting all the oil. This Hubbert Peak will >have > > >to > > > > > > >occur > > > > > > > > > >sometime before these dates, but the later it >occurs > > >the > > > > > > >sharper the > > > > > > > > > >decline in oil production. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There are some other extrapolations one could do. >Take > > >a > > > > >range > > > > > > >of > > > > > > > > >issues that positively scream for judicious > > >application of > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >precautionary principle and development of > > >alternatives, > > > > > > >however that > > > > > > > > >would threaten the immediate interests of the > > > > >powers-that-be; > > > > > > >then > > > > > > > > >calculate how long on average they manage to spend >in > > > > >denial, > > > > > > >how > > > > > > > > >long on average they manage to drag their feet, >how > > >long > > > > >they > > > > > > >get > > > > > > > > >away with prolonged negotiations that only address > > >part of > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >problem and propose inadequate solutions, and how >long > > >the > > > > > > >transition > > > > > > > > >period they manage to muscle across, add it all >up, > > >add 5, > > > > > > >subtract > > > > > > > > >the square root of the number you started off >with, > > >cross > > > > >your > > > > > > >heart > > > > > > > > >and count to 13, and you have the number of >decades > > >after > > > > >the > > > > > > >point > > > > > > > > >at which something could still have been done >about > > >it. > > > > >This > > > > > > >might > > > > > > > > >perhaps be referred to as "Hubbert's Trough". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Now isn't that young master Bush proposing to >increase > > > > >energy > > > > > > > > >consumption over the next decade or two? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On the other hand, when energy prices shot up in > > > > >California > > > > > > >last > > > > > > > > >year, down went the demand. Maybe the market does > > >indeed > > > > >work > > > > > > > > >sometimes. The Newsweek story below says Americans > > >don't > > > > > > >believe > > > > > > > > >there's an energy crisis because the prices are >low. > > >Why > > > > >the > > > > > > >OECD, > > > > > > > > >Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US >gas > > > > >should > > > > > > >cost at > > > > > > > > >least $6 a gallon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Interesting quote in that story: 'Texaco chairman > > >Peter > > > > >Bijur > > > > > > >once > > > > > > > > >said that talk of failing energy supplies remind >him > > >of > > > > > > >Cyprian, a > > > > > > > > >Roman who warned in A.D. 250 that "the world has >grown > > > > >old... > > > > > > >The > > > > > > > > >rainfall and sun's warmth are both diminishing, >the > > >metals > > > > >are > > > > > > >nearly > > > > > > > > >exhausted."' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.msnbc.com/news/732017.asp?cp1=1 > > > > > > > > >The Thirst for Oil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Actually there's another extrapolation that might >be > > > > >useful, > > > > > > >concerning this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A straight linear extrapolation of oil >consumption > > > > >indicates > > > > > > >that all > > > > > > > > > >the world's oil will run out between the years > > > > >2032-2045. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The Newsweek story also says this: "... it looked >in > > >1970 > > > > >as > > > > > > >if oil > > > > > > > > >would run out in 33 years-that is, next year. This > > >year, > > > > >the > > > > > > >same > > > > > > > > >calculation puts the day of reckoning in 2046." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As Hakan said, survey techniques are much more > > >accurate > > > > >now. > > > > > > >And > > > > > > > > >that's it? We've got there, huh? No more progress, > > >science > > > > > > >stands > > > > > > > > >still. In fact it's quite easy to get a handle on >the > > >rate > > > > >of > > > > > > > > >technological improvement. It's exponential, like > > > > >computing > > > > > > >power. > > > > > > > > >Could just be you're looking at an ever-receding > > >goalpost > > > > >with > > > > > > > > >Hubbert's Peak as well as with the final drop of >oil > > >being > > > > > > >extracted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This is worth saying again: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >One response to the $75 per bbl question above >was > > >this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"... excellent point. We tried to stabilize the > > >price of > > > > > > >Gold for > > > > > > > > > >years. Now its >200$ and mines are viable that > > >weren't > > > > >at > > > > > > >$35/oz. > > > > > > > > > >Plus, many commercial processes that used Gold >have > > > > >found > > > > > > > > > >substitutes or ways to use less Gold. >Gold-plated > > > > >contacts > > > > > > >are > > > > > > > > > >alloyed with Nickel to extend and strengthen the > > > > >microlayer > > > > > > >of Gold. > > > > > > > > > >Companies have arisen to reclaim Gold off >e-scrap. > > >Now, > > > > >the > > > > > > >analogy > > > > > > > > > >is obvious. If Gold were held at $35, then none >of > > >these > > > > > > >measures > > > > > > > > > >would be existent. In the same way, >tech-progress in > > > > >energy > > > > > > >has been > > > > > > > > > >halted due to cheap oil. I have no doubt >whatsoever > > >that > > > > > > >inventors > > > > > > > > > >can come up with a way to make oil at $20-50 per > > >barrel. > > > > >So > > > > > > >let the > > > > > > > > > >price rise. I hope oil goes to $200 per barrel." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yup. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >So knock out ALL the artificial props from under >US > > >gas > > > > > > >prices, > > > > > > > > >charge the REAL price at the pump and everywhere >else, > > > > >then on > > > > > > >top of > > > > > > > > >that tax the hell out of it and use the taxes to > > >promote > > > > > > >energy > > > > > > > > >efficiency, energy conservation, and renewable >energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >And do it NOW - and not just because of Hubbert's > > >Peak. > > > > >Not > > > > > > >even > > > > > > > > >because of Hubbert's Peak, there are far more >pressing > > > > >reasons > > > > > > >than > > > > > > > > >that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I guess you might have to do something about your > > > > >politicians > > > > > > >first, LOL! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Keith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > > > >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the >list > > > > >address. > > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list > > > > >address. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > >Terms of > > > > > > >Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list > > >address. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list > > >address. > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >Terms of > > > > >Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > >Biofuels list archives: > > > > >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list >address. > > > > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! 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