Hello Art Thankyou, Stuart should not have taken it offlist, especially after I asked that it stay onlist as several people were interested. I'm glad to see it return.
It needs the preceding bit though, that was onlist, so I've added it at the end. Thanks again Best wishes Keith Addison List owner >Keith, > >Per our discussion, I have these emails to submit to the Biofuels forum. > >These are a series of emails that I had with Stuart Hoernig on his >concept of de-humidifying air with electrostatics. They read in >reverse order. > >Stuart was kind enough to FAX me two pages which were the basis for >his concept. I reviewed them and sent my comments back to him. >He has chosen to stop further communication on the subject. > >I have designed several high voltage Cottrell Precipitators which >successfully collect particulates from the air. We have been able >to collect droplets but not unless they have condensed into droplets >in the airstream due to saturation. Unsaturated vapors pass right >through the unit without agglomerating. > >I look forward to the potential of seeing these items on the market >but I am not looking too hard. > >Art Krenzel, P.E. >PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES >10505 NE 285TH Street >Battle Ground, WA 98604 >360-666-1883 voice >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Stuart Hoenig >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:07 PM >Subject: Your last e-mail > > >I see no reason for us to correspond any more , you are on AC and I >am on DC. Hopefully you will see some of our inventions on the >market on Phoenix by the end of the year. > >Stuart A. Hoernig > > >Stuart, > >You mentioned the obvious - that air moving across a lake can >increase the water evaporation by a factor of two. What was not >obvious in your presentation was that the lake was at 50 degrees >centigrade (see graph data). The vapor pressure of water at 20 >degrees C = 17.5 mm Hg. The vapor pressure of water at 50 degrees C >= 92.51 mm Hg. The vapor pressure is 5.3 times greater at 50 >degrees C than at room temperature. > >Would you not expect water to evaporate at least five times faster >with a five fold increase in vapor pressure when you agree that wind >alone doubles the evaporation rate?? > >Electric wind velocity is proportional to voltage applied so you can >generate nice graphs such as you presented when you compare >evaporation rate vs time. > > >> You said, "In normal evaporation many of the drops go back to >the liquid phase, if the drops are evaporated electrostatically >they will have a charge and will be repelled by the surface with has >the opposite charge." > >In my world, opposite charges attract each other. > > >>You said, "Last but not least the droplets evaporated from salt >water are fresh, this has been understood for some 75 years. Where >do you think CA gets all its water---rainfall." > >Yes, CA gets rainfall which comes from condensed water VAPOR from >the ocean. The vapor stage leaves behind all the solids which you >are proposing to collect the droplets with. Unless you have >severely acid rain, water vapor is more of an insulator when it >comes to collecting a charge. That is why thunderstorms can >generate incredible voltages per meter and store such high energy >fields in the clouds. If the clouds had high conductivity such as >the ions you propose, lightning would not be generated in such huge >bursts of energy. > >I think this subject needs some better review. > >Art Krenzel, P.E. >PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES >10505 NE 285TH Street >Battle Ground, WA 98604 >360-666-1883 voice >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stuart Hoenig > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:38 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information > > > > I guess I forgot to mention things I thought were obvious; 1) >There will be a temperature drop as the water evaporates, you take >some of the water and run it through long sections of plastic tubing >that lie in the sun. You do not evaporate all the salt water only >about 10-15 percent of it. The rest goes back to the ocean. > > Air moving across a lake does increase the rate of evaporation, >this has been measured > and at most it is a factor of 2. In normal evaporation many of >the drops go back to the liquid phase, if the drops are >evaporated electrostatically they will have a charge and will be >repelled by the surface with has the opposite charge. Last but not >least the droplets evaporated from salt water are fresh, this has >been understood for some 75 years. Where do you think CA gets all >its water---rainfall. > > > Stuart Previous: >From: "Art Krenzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:42:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information > >Keith, > >I have not heard from Stuart or seen anything on the site. > >I would like to review the technology with him as well. > >Art > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Addison > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:37 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information > > > Hello Art, Stuart > > Has there been any further discussion on this? I hope it hasn't gone > off-list, leaving the issue hanging here like this, lists are for > sharing. If so, could you please bring it back onlist, and recap? > > Thanks > > Keith Addison > > > >Stuart, > > > >I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there > >might be some other features which are affecting the evaporation > >rate of the water beyond high voltage. > > > >First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant > >vapor pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the > >water. > > > >Second: High voltage can create a feature called "electric wind" > >which can create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water > >surface. A higher airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as > >evidenced by wind blowing across a lake. It is not uncommon to get > >a multiple increase in evaporation rate even at room temperature by > >increasing the airflow across the surface of water. > > > >Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the > >energy for evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable > >by high voltage or such. Water doesn't just "exist" at 50 deg C > >unless something is heating it up and this was not made clear in the > >data or sketches you sent. How much energy was added to the water > >during the time of testing? > > > >Fourth: I would like a better explanation how "water vapor" can be > >condensed using high voltage. I can understand how "droplets" (not > >water vapor) can be electrostatically collected if they can hold a > >charge but not "water vapor". I worked for a waste water evaporator > >manufacturer for awhile and noticed that the evaporation rate when > >the liquid level was close to the stack was quite high. As the > >liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well. It > >turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being > >entrained in the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted > >as evaporation rate but really clogged the stack as the water > >evaporated and left the solids which had been in the evaporator > >waste water. > > > >Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the > >airflow across the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a > >condenser downstream of the evaporator, the salt concentration of > >the condensed water will be the same as the salt concentration in > >the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only when you go to > >completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids behind. > > > >Looking forward to your reply. > > > >Art Krenzel, P.E. > >PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > >10505 NE 285TH Street > >Battle Ground, WA 98604 > >360-666-1883 voice > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stuart Hoenig > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig > > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information > > > > > > Art Krenzel > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. > >1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be > >used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be > >used. > > > > The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 > >is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage > >available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better > >results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water > >section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV > >best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other > >things. > > > > For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel > >will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to > >stainless. I will be happy to work with you. > > > > Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, > >www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or > >GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. > > > > Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig > > > > Dept. of Electrical Engin. > > > > Univ. Of Arizona > > > > Tucson, AZ 85721 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Art Krenzel > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information > > > > > > Professor Hoenig: > > > > You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this > >listserve. I thank you. > > > > I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not > >heard of a "simpler electrical system could increase the rate of > >evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can > >be condensed by another simple electrical system. > > > > Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? > > > > I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic > >wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of > >life. Keep beating the drum! > > > > Art Krenzel, P.E. > > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > > 10505 NE 285TH Street > > Battle Ground, WA 98604 > > 360-666-1883 voice > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stuart Hoenig > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM > > Subject: [biofuel] Items of information > > > > > > Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are > >thinking only > > about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is > > impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large > > commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is > > different, there is a huge business involved in methane > >production. In fact > > Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on > > methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications. > > > > Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by > >digestion of > > garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for > > softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. >Just think you > > get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful >fuel. There are > > 500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide > >more information. > > > > The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part > >of the USA > > and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado > >and it's dams > > are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the > >desalting of > > sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it > >was shown that > > a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of > >evaporation by 500% > > and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed > >by another > > simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water. > > > > These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the >members will > > give them some consideration. > > > > Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig > > Dept. of Electrical Engin. > > Univ. of Arizona > > Tucson, AZ 85721-0104 > > > > Fax 520-887-9727 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! 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