Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. But in some course literature I read some time ago, it said that "oil spill from rape seed oil will leave you two months to wipe it up before it polymerizes, soy bean oil will leave you two weeks, and linseed oil two days. " From this way of reasoning one can conclude, when comparing the average IV values of each oil, that blending rape seed oil with llinseed oil to an average IV value of soybean oil, will produce an oil with similar polymerization properties as soybean oil. And further- if producing of biodiesel out of high IV oils, will lower the fatty acids« ability to polymerize one can conclude that the first step of polmerization takes place within the triglyceride molecule, possibly with bridges of oxygen between the double bonds of different fatty acids. In methyl ester the fatty acids with the right will to polymerize have some difficulties finding each other and build bridges. Give me some input on this way of explanation ,Keith ! Best regards Jan
Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? > Hello DB and all > > >Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil > >and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the > >australian report "WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel" it is obvious > >that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not > >so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct > >quote from that report......... " Trans esterifying triglyceride > >oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly > >eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and > >auto-oxidation.." The base crop for european biodiesel being > >rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my > >stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get > >cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer > >use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I > >only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no > >longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run > >BD50.........Drive down the road > >Happy...............................DB ..PS. I have been making > >biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero > >problems. > > I agree, and thankyou, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of your > solution, attractive though it is. Does an IV value average out when > you blend different oils? Other things will, of course, like say FFA > levels, you'll end up with an average and that's that. But in a blend > with biodiesel made from a high IV oil with biodiesel made from lower > IV oils, while the proportion of high IV oil will be lower, what's to > stop it oxidising and polymerising just the same? Blending it doesn't > change its makeup. I'm not sure what effect blending it with > petrodiesel would have, but that wouldn't change its makeup either, > it still has its double bonds to be broken down and polymerise. All > you'd get is proportionately less polymerisation, no? So it'll take > longer to gunge up the engine. That doesn't solve the problem, just > mitigates it. Sorry, I don't know if this is right or not, just > trying to be logical - maybe it doesn't work like that, but I'd like > to know. > > Regards > > Keith > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "TLC Orchids and Such" > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] > > > > > >>Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? > >>Can better oil filtering help with this problem? > >>Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] > >> > >> > >>>Thanks for the follow up, Keith. > >>>I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some > >>>relevant facts here: > >>> > >>www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthe rs > >>_e.pdf > >>><#www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec> > >>>Keith Addison wrote: > >>> > >>> > Hello Stephan, Jan and all > >>> > > >>> > I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was > >>> > quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: > >>> > > >>> >> Hi Keith, > >>> >> > >>> >> this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. > >>> >> > >>> >> Mit freundlichen GrŸ§en / Best regards > >>> >> > >>> >> Alexander Noack > >>> >> ELSBETT Technologie GmbH > >>> >> Weissenburger Stra§e 15 > >>> >> D-91177 Thalmaessing > >>> >> Internet: www.elsbett.com > >>> >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> >> phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 > >>> >> Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > This was the quote in question: > >>> > > >>> >> "Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean > >>> >> based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel > >>> >> engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. > >>> >> There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when > >>> >> in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a > >>> >> polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the > >>> >> life of your lubricating system. > >>> >> > >>> >> "What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for > >>> >> the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil > >>> >> intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed > >>> >> also known as canola." > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Best wishes > >>> > > >>> > Keith > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> Hello Jan > >>> >> > >>> >>> Hello Stephan. > >>> >>> The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting > >>> >>> soy bean > >>> >>> oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, > >>>corn oil >>> and > >>> >>> several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating > >>> >>> that the > >>> >>> oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and > >>> >>> therefore > >>> >>> unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: "Drying > >>> >> results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the > >>> >> unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and > >>> >> being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then > >>> >> occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid." > >>> >> -- From "Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel" by Phillip > >>> >> Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, > >>> >> and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association > >>> >> Inc. > >>> >> http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm > >>> >> > >>> >> See: > >>> >> Iodine Values > >>> >> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine > >>> >> > >>> >> But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as > >>> >> saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: > >>> >> > >>> >> "Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean > >>> >> based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel > >>> >> engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. > >>> >> There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when > >>> >> in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a > >>> >> polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the > >>> >> life of your lubricating system. > >>> >> > >>> >> "What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for > >>> >> the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil > >>> >> intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed > >>> >> also known as canola." > >>> >> > >>> >> So it would seem that Elsbett's reservations are not so much with > >>> >> polymerisation per se because of the high iodine number as with > >>> >> fuel-lubricating oil interactions. > >>> >> > >>> >> Can you shed any light on this? > >>> >> > >>> >>> There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine > >>> >>> number, > >>> >>> and there is no practical difference between those products and the > >>> >>> BD:s > >>> >>> with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Can you quote any research that supports the conclusion that there is > >>> >> no practical difference? I've heard of drying problems with sunflower > >>> >> oil biodiesel, and even with rapeseed oil biodiesel (I don't have the > >>> >> reports, I was told they're in German) and I would not want to use > >>> >> linseed oil or tung oil. > >>> >> > >>> >>> And may I add that > >>> >>> the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Of course they do - how much do you think the soy councils and Big > >>> >> Soy had to do with that? They were involved at every level. Whatever > >>> >> the science may say, do you think it would have been possible for > >>> >> them to develop standards that excluded soy? > >>> >> > >>> >> Similarly, it's often said that the EU standard's stipulating a > >>> >> maximum iodine # of 120 (115 in France and Germany, while the US > >>> >> standard doesn't stipulate anything) is politically based, intended > >>> >> to exclude soy and protect European rapeseed oil production, but is > >>> >> that really all there is to it? > >>> >> > >>> >> If you really wanted to exclude drying problems you'd probably have > >>> >> to exclude rapeseed oil as well and stop at castor oil (85), but no > >>> >> doubt that would be as politically impossible in Europe as excluding > >>> >> soy would be in the US. In both, though less so in Europe perhaps, > >>> >> biodiesel and biofuels are still seen more as agricultural > >>> >> commodities issues than as energy issues. > >>> >> > >>> >> There is a whole side to this that is not to be trusted. In the US, > >>> >> it might not be a clever thing to do career-wise for a researcher to > >>> >> start investigating polymerising problems with soy biodiesel. Quality > >>> >> checks of commercial biodiesel seem to be far from watertight, with > >>> >> one lab attesting ASTM quality and another - after the fuel started > >>> >> causing problems - finding it was not ASTM quality. One commercial > >>> >> produceare repeatedly produced off-spec fuel that caused problems > >>> >> with users' cars, but the NBB didn't seem to be aware of it and > >>> >> proudly presented that producer's plant for delegates to the NBB's > >>> >> annual convention to tour. People at the convention who raised the > >>> >> sub-spec fuel issue were told not to rock the boat. > >>> >> > >>> >> Like Stephan, I too would like some reliable information on this > >>> >> issue. I'm not convinced that it's not a problem. > >>> >> > >>> >> We have discussed this here before, Alexander's statement, > >>> >> polymerisation, and oxidation - see: > >>> >> > >>> >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34679/ > >>> >> > >>> >> and > >>> >> > >>> >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34769/1 > >>> >> > >>> >> (Elsbett, by the way, is not anti-biodiesel.) > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> Keith > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> Best regards > >>> >>> Jan Warnqvist > >>> >>> AGERATEC AB > >>> >>> > >>> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> >>> > >>> >>> + 46 554 201 89 > >>> >>> +46 70 499 38 45 > >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> >>> From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:19 AM > >>> >>> Subject: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD > >>> >>> making?] > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >Hi Everyone! > >>> >>> > >I am a recent addition to the biodiesel world, due to > >>>a >>> > >malfunction > >>> >>> > >in my brain (age related no doubt) that caused me to go and buy a > >>> >>> > >190D.(I Love it just as I knew I would) . After I decided that > >>> >>> > >buying the conversion kit from Elsbett wasn't necessarily the best > >>> >>> > >option (due to local WVO quality concerns)....by the way, if you > >>> >>> come to > >>> >>> > >Hawaii, where I live, and decide to eat in a restaurant, make sure > >>> >>> > >you have healthinsurance, the glop they are using here to > >>>fry >>> > >stuff > >>> >>> > >in ...... > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > >Seriously, though, the WVO I am getting here is is a mix of mostly > >>> >>> > >Soybean oil used 100 times over and other unidentified saturated > >>and > >>> >>> unsaturated things. > >>> >>> > >So I deciided to make BD. > >>> >>> > >Now, Everything is running, I've done small batches, large > >>batches, > >>> >>> > >learned a lot, I am using it....and now I just read that an > >>> >>> > >Elsbett engineer said to stay away from Soybean oil, regardless if > >>> >>> > >used straight or as feedstock for BD. > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > >Now, in my (brief) dealings with the Elsbett company I had the > >>> >>> > >distinctive feeling that they have a little bit of an anti- BD > >>> >>> leaning > >>> >>> (maybe I got that because German is my native language) > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > But in studying the resources further, and considering the high IV > >>> >>> > >of soybean oil more questions as to its suitability seem to > >>> >>> emerge.... > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > >Here are some questions: As far as suitability as a long term > >>> >>> > >source for B100, how serious are the concerns in using BD made > >>from > >>> >>> > >this sort of an oil? > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > What criteria in evaluating the finished product (beyond Mike > >>> >>> Perry's > >>> >>> criteria of pH and aspect) > >>> >>> > >should serve as a go no go test? > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > does a two step process improve the situation with the high number > >>of > >>> >>> double bonds > >>> >>> > (which leads to the high IV value, as I understand) > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >Thanks for your consideration, Aloha > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
