Camillo, Thankyou for settling this issue. Dioxins are indeed a serious problem being long lived and only destroyed at very high temperatures - way above those inside engines.
With high temperatures, NOx emissions become a problem, but at least they are far less dangerous than dioxins. Thankyou also for your (earlier) encouraging comment on how easy it was to get operation licences for your plant. I agree that a biodiesel plant should have low emissions even one using waste oils, but getting that point across to municiple beurocrats is not always so easy. ELsbett I think it is a great shame that Mr Elsbett's engine design ideas could not have found their way into common use. His whirlpool effect with air spinning inside the combustion chamber was a great way to keep the flames away from the metal surface - improving efficiency and combustion cleanliness. His split piston was another clever idea allowing tighter tolerances and again better efficiency. As for his attitude towards biodiesel, in a way he might be right. Engines can be made to run on plain oil. The problem is that 99.9% of road engines cannot run on plain oil without expensive modifications. If we waited for the motor industry to develop new engines we will never have a vegetable oil based fuel industry. Biodiesel is the only practical answer. Emissions are another issue. Anything new always has to overcome more regulatory obstacles than something established. The playing field is not level. Biodiesel has been proven to be cleaner than anything else used in diesel engines. Raw oil would have to go through the same process. Dave Elliott --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Camillo Holecek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sorry, you missed a good part of my point and I may have to be more clear: > There is a wide range of toxics. Agreed. > > The problem I mentioned is of the DIOXINE class ! > > That is a level of toxidity, where any trace IS relevant and there is ZERO > TOLERANCE, specially with authorithies! > > All this detergents I mentioned use also some chlorine components and they a > perfectly producing DIOXINE varieties when burned incompletly in ANY engine. > > DEDICATED toxic-refuse incinerators with proper dioxine filter systems are > the only sensible way. > > If you are a collector and have some witts, you should be able to sell > grease trap oil to the operator of the refuse incinerators as fuel. Has been > done in many parts of the world. Incinerators have to reach very high > temperatures and do need fuel. > > Camillo Holecek > > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > m > [mailto:sentto-3381553-170-993563706- [EMAIL PROTECTED] > elist.com]Im Auftrag von [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Juni 2001 15:31 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [biofuels-biz] Re: Sistem for collecting used oils > > I agree that trap grease product should not be sold alongside DIN > standard biodiesel. However, that does not prevent the grease trap > fuel being sold for use in stationary generators or off road plant. > If blended with mineral fuel at 20% any trace toxins in the bio will > be swamped by the hundreds of toxins which make up dinodiesel. > > However, there could also be a major problem disposing the water used > to wash the trap grease. At the minimum you'll need a reverse osmosis > plant. Maybe we need a mobile wash plant that can clean the grease at > the client's site. Any toxic traces will be a mere fraction of the > stuff they routinely pour into their drains. > > The alternative is to burn the trap grease in refuse incinerators. > New plants are fairly clean, but I don't believe they can avoid every > horrible emission. I also doubt they will strip out the water making > it less likley to burn cleanly. > > I would like to keep a high energy fuel for diesel engine use. But, > maybe the best option is to burn it in plants (like cement works) > which already use dirty fuels like oremulsion and lignite coal. > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Camillo Holecek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > One thought on grease trap materials: > > > > BEWARE OF THE CLEANING AGENTS AND DESINFECTANTS in that material !!! > > > > You can get yourself into a bunch full of troubles, if you want to > produce a > > "green" product like BD and someone (like health authorities) find > those > > typical traces of PCBs, Lindan, and all the other goodies in you > product and > > you havent even been aware they are there. > > > > Here in Europe, grease trap contents are not even feed to biogas > digesters > > because of that problem. > > > > So our conclusion was: Yes, it's cheap fat, but no, we are not > going to use > > it for comercial BD production. > > > > Camillo Holecek > > Biodiesel Raffinerie GmbH > > > > > > > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > > Von: Samai Jaiin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. Juni 2001 09:37 > > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Betreff: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Sistem for collecting used oils > > > > > > Hi Dave,Keith,Steve, > > I wonder if you guys have had experiences with grease > > from restuarant's grease trap ? say if we need a plant > > to convert the collected grease into methylester; is > > this advisable/viable/technically possible ? Or would > > you suggest that we just clean the grease and feed it > > to the boilers? > > Samai in Bangkok > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > If existing > > collectors don't have to pay landfill > > > costs or clean-up > > > costs for animal feed they should be able to sell it > > > very cheap. If > > > they won't, set up your own collection service with > > > agreed contracts > > > at minimal costs to waste oil producers. But don't > > > do it for nothing. > > > No cost = no value = no respect = more dirt and mess > > > for you. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "steve spence" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > the restaurant has to pay for it's removal, and it > > > gets landfilled. > > > I'd have > > > > to set up collection contracts, guaranteed > > > removal, and permits for > > > grease > > > > hauling, but would definitely be able to lowball > > > the guys who have > > > to pay > > > > tipping fees at the landfill. > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Spence > > > > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: > > > > http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm > > > > > > > > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com > > > > Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm > > > > X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax > > > > We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, > > > > we borrow it from our children. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:48 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Sistem for collecting > > > used oils > > > > > > > > > > > > > >why is it expensive to collect used oil? what > > > quantities are you > > > > referring > > > > > >to? there are over 100 restaurants in this area > > > (15 miles) > > > > > > > > > > > >would take me a day to collect over 1000 > > > gallons of used grease. > > > > > > > > > > Hi Steve > > > > > > > > > > What happens to it if folks like you don't > > > collect it? > > > > > > > > > > Keith Addison > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: > > > > > >http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm > > > > > > > > > > > >Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com > > > > > >Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm > > > > > >X10 Home Automation - > > > http://www.webconx.com/x10 > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >(212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax > > > > > >We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, > > > > > >we borrow it from our children. > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Mauro Knudsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 10:24 AM > > > > > >Subject: [biofuels-biz] Sistem for collecting > > > used oils > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of cheapest kind of oil is the used oil > > > (from the > > > > > > > frier), but this system have some > > > disadvantajes, for > > > > > > > example collecting the oil is complicated > > > and > > > > > > > expensive. > > > > > > > So, I designed a new system to collecting > > > this used > > > > > > > oil for make Biodiesel: > > > > > > > _The Biodiesel factory have to make a > > > contract with > > > > > > > the oil factory or the oil refiner. The idea > > > is that > > > > > > > the same system of distribution of new oil > > > will > > > > > > > collect the used oil at less from the big > > > consumers > > > > > > > (like fast foods shops or restorants). The > > > biodiesel > > > > > > > factory pay an exchange charge, for example, > > > by every > > > > > > > 5 liters of used oil collected, the > > > biodiesel plant > > > > > > > pays 1 liter of new oil to the users. > > > > > > > _In this system all the people wins > > > something, the new > > > > > > > oil producer or refiner wins more market > > > because their > > > > > > > oils will be 20% cheaper without invest > > > anything, > > > > > > > consumers have a descount of 20% in the oil > > > price and > > > > > > > the biodiesel plant get a very cheap used > > > oil without > > > > > > > have to collect them. > > > > > > > _This system will work better if the > > > biodiesel plant > > > > > > > work together with a very big oil company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please send me some coments, I want to > > > improve the > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mauro Ariel Knudsen > > > > > > > Argentinean Biodieseler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > Biofuel at WebConX > > > > > http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > > > to: > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > > > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel at WebConX > > http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Biofuel at WebConX > http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
