I also should apologise on reading my test today it looks a bit harshly worded.
I'm sure we have the same point of view about commercial quality control and analytical testing which has to have far more proof of quality. By the way can anybody suggest what would be a typical cost to buy and run a gas chromatograph? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Camillo Holecek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sorry, you got me completly wrong! > > We have been discussing RESEARCH work in different methods !!! And in that > context I wanted to suggest that our collective attempts to guess on the > results of some experiments over email may have its natural limitations, ok? > > I did not at all suggest anything for plain good biodiesel bulk (home) > brewing. > > Camillo Holecek > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > m > [mailto:sentto-3381553-188-993724283- [EMAIL PROTECTED] > elist.com]Im Auftrag von [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. Juni 2001 12:31 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [biofuels-biz] Re: Bio- vs. Palm Oil? > > Camillo, you seem to be suggesting that every batch should be tested > to PROVE it complies using gas chromatography, etc? Is it not > possible or practical to CONFIRM the a batch complies with more > simple cheap(er) tests rather than prove it complies with expensive > tests. > > The high level test costs I have been (verbally) quoted would > bankrupt a small business if applied to every batch and I think would > make a serious dent in larger business profits. > > The following are cheap/relatively simple to test. I believe they > should cover the quality issues that show the fuel is fit for purpose: > # Ph > # Specific gravity > # Copper corrosion > # Viscosity > # Water > # Cloud/dew point > # Gel point > > For commercial reasons, I think a specialist test for calorific value > should also be included. Customers won't return if they get less MPG > than they expect. > > Dave > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Camillo Holecek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > May I add my two cents, too? > > > > Here we reach the limit of what could be done without proper > analysis of our > > products = homemade biodiesel. To clarify such subtleties like the > > difference on what you call base/base and acid/base, you can not do > without > > giving that stuff to a laboratory who is equiped and certified to > do DIN > > standard testing. Yes, that may be something like 100U$ per sample. > No, > > there is no other way, unless you call a gas chromatography kit and > all the > > other testing equipment you own ;-) > > > > Only then can you KNOW if you have mono/di/triglycerides left in > your brew, > > or potasium, or soap, or acid (!) or phosphor, or whatever. What do > you > > think, why the DIN standard consists of more then 30 different > chemical and > > physical parameters? > > > > Quality is CRUCIAL in our industry. Some clever, self appointed, > german > > biodiesel makers have managed to ruin the reputation of BD so much, > that it > > appeares possible that even VW will bring out it's 2002 models > WITHOUT BD > > approval in protest of the widespread poor quality biodiesel found > at german > > pumping stations (poor means of course also way below DIN 51606 > quality > > standards). > > > > Camillo Holecek > > > > > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > > Von: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > m > > [mailto:sentto-3381553-178-993619357- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > elist.com]Im Auftrag von Keith Addison > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juni 2001 07:31 > > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Betreff: [biofuels-biz] Re: Bio- vs. Palm Oil? > > > > >On fuel quality we have to be "whiter than white" and be seen to be > > >so. > > > > > >Dave > > > > Hi Dave > > > > Indeed yes. You raised some previous questions about quality. > > > > >High FFA fats can be acid esterified - see Alecs Kak's recipe on > > >www.journeytoforever.org. However, I would add that you do need to > > >titrate. High levels of FFA need longer in the acid stage so how > long > > >is enough if you don't know the FFA content. > > > > <snip> > > > > >I'm not convinced the calorific value is as good as plain base > > >reacted ester so would appreciate what you find out on that. > > > > Also: > > > > >I have tested some ester made using the acid/base/base process. It > > >worked fine and I got less byproduct than when I use the normal > > >base/base process. However, on base/base ester, my car's fuel trip > > >computer will register about 44 mpg after about 5 miles of 70mph > > >driving. > > > > > >With the acid/base product it would struggle to 40mpg under the > same > > >conditions. Yesterday I added 4 gals of base/base to the tank which > > >already contained about 4 gals of acid/base fuel. Within 5 miles, > my > > >trip computer was showing 44mpg and rising. This is the second > time I > > >have had this result, so it's not a oneoff event. > > > > > >We need to be careful. If we try to sell acid/base fuel as being > the > > >same as base/base fuel then we have to be sure it really IS the > same. > > > > > >I'm sure my acid reacted fuel lost something - oxygens maybe? Is it > > >simply stripping the glycerols from FFA, leaving the FFA to mix in > > >with the ester made by the base reaction process? This could > explain > > >the low calorific value. > > > > > >Proper research is needed on this question. > > > > I forwarded this to Aleks. Here's his response. > > > > "Biodiesel has a lower calorific value per litre than triglics mixes > > (oil/fat). If he does make more mpg on base bio, this means that he > > is driving on something else than methyl esters. I presume that this > > would be a mix of methyl/mono-/di-/(possible tri-) glcerids. That's > > called sloppy biodiesel. True, it packs more carbon into the > > cylinders, but it also emits acroleins. I'm (almost) ashamed to > say : > > I use it (offroad). It > > really packs more power because it has a higher density. On the > other > > hand, I can > > see my exhaust fumes and this isn't quite good. > > > > "Re titration - determinig exact reaction time is a pain because ffa > > levels vary wildly. I established two categories: > > 1. up to heavily used liquid fat and medium used solid fat : 1.75 > hrs > > 2. more than medium used solid fat and up : 2.25 hrs > > Longer reaction times just cost time and energy. You get a little > > better results, but the price is high." > > > > Best > > > > Keith Addison > > > > > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel at WebConX > > http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Biofuel at WebConX > http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! 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