Zeke, Solar panels was very common in California 100 years ago. Was replaced by other hot water heaters in a successful marketing campaign from the energy companies.
Hakan At 20:21 27/04/2006, you wrote: >Yeah -- I think that part of it is that people are used to seeing >really ugly solar thermal installations put in during the 80's, and >not much has been installed here since then. And then they think that >solar thermal is old technology that has been superceded by PV. Not >knowing the different between electricity and hot water helps... one >guy I talked to actually thought that his solar thermal panels stored >sunlight somehow, and didn't actually have a clue that they heated >water up. He wanted them taken down because they came with the house >and he didn't want solar any more.... great thinking since natural >gas prices keep jumping up here... > >On 4/27/06, Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Zeke, > > > > Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, > > I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where > > you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal > > thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost > > effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for > > itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this > > to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years. > > > > The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get > > very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency. > > > > Hakan > > > > > > At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: > > >If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? > > >That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and > > >can easily achieve the temperatures required. > > > > > >On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places > > > > electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. > > > > Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear > with a small > > > > fraction from other types of generation. However even with > your 70 -85% > > > > numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude > > > > burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere > would be quite > > > > significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is > > > > generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like > > > > nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to > be the best > > > > option and I would still use an electric heater. I have > obtained a surplus > > > > watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to > > > my reactor > > > > so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I > want to determine > > > > the viability of running it from a PV system. > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% > > > > efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% > > > > efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 > > > > times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the > > > > efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the > > > > power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, > > > > but we are not there yet. > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically > > > > 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I > > > > meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not > > > > without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your > > > > emissions from burning?? > > > > > > > > J > > > > > > > > Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity > > > > production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the > > > > electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I > > > > would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge > > > > and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because > > > > now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does > > > > however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat > > > > with oil, than with electricity. > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat > > > > or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more > > > > efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old > > > > mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a > > > > manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale > > > > about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is > > > > a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as > > > > close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be > > > > careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an > > > > area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use > > > > several low density heaters to speed things up. > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > Jason & Katie wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil > > > > solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and > screen it out? > > > > thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard > cider when my > > > > grandma was a kid. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: > > > > <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org><biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM > > > > Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO > > > > that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of > > > > heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. > > > > > > > > Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this > > > > further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I > see on JtF is > > > > variations on heating and settling. > > > > > > > > If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the > > > > oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of > > > > water > > > > tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that > > > > will > > > > then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. > > > > > > > > An example video can be seen at > > > > > > > > <http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm > > > > > > > > Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Ryan Pope > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for > advice on how to > > > > get there! > > > > > > > > <http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement>http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > > messages): > > > > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release > Date: 4/25/2006 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives > > > > (50,000 messages): > > > > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > > messages): > > > > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > > messages): > > > > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > > messages): > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > > messages): > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > > messages): > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Biofuel mailing list > > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives > (50,000 messages): > > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives > (50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
