No offense taken.
I'm thrilled to be able "pick your brain".
(Maybe not a global idiom: as in get inside; gain from
your insight)
BHT has long been used to extend shelf life of veg oils.
Natural antioxidants such as tocopherols are known to
increase oxidation stability of veg oils and in the
biodiesel made from them. What objection is there to using
BHT as an additive to extend "shelf life" of biodiesel?
Misinformation abounds. I was under the impression
that B100 was accepted and readily available
throughout Europe.
Tom
> Sorry Tom, did not mean to offend you.
> The experience that you are referring to should involve
> the fact that
> almost no B100 is sold i Europe. The BD is blended into
> dino with 4-7%
> by weight. That about the experience of EN quality.
> Furthermore, the
> oxidation stability seems to be a topic only when
storage
> time is
> discussed. The companies sellning BHT seems to focus on
> that. But, given
> the conditions in a veichle´s fuel tank during
> operation, it seems
> likely that the oxidation stability is of importance
> there too. The fuel
> tanks can become hot 70-80oC I am told. But if you can
> run your car om
> Soy BD without problems under all conditions, then the
> issue is simply
> storage capacity. But then again,if you can store your
BD
> for three
> months without any significant changes in peroxide and
> anidin values,
> then it´s ok.
> I am not able to give you an ideal OS-IP value, but my
> personal opinion
> is that the CEN value is over the top.
> Fresh oils with low peroxide and anidine values have
> better chance to
> stay fresh as biodiesel.
> Good thing to avoid copper and zinc. Copper creates
> disaster with the
> BD. All copper alloys should be forbidden in connection
> with BD,
> including brass and bronze.
>
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:32:46 -0400 (EDT), "Thomas
Kelly"
> <ontheh...@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>> The years of experience I am referring to is my
>> understanding that B100 has been available in Europe
>> for years. The CEN standards have apparently ensured
>> satisfactory fuel quality. I'm not aware of the
>> politics of rapeseed oil or of its cost.
>> The debate seems to revolve around the question of
>> whether the CEN standard for oxidation stability is too
>> high or the ASTM standard is too low.
>> Your expertise is recognized.
>> What is an acceptable OS-IP value?
>> What oils might meet this acceptable value?
>> I've run cars on biodiesel made from various and
>> unknown oil types. (These include soy.) My fuel is
>> rarely
>> stored longer than a month. I avoid metals like copper
>> and
>> zinc in production, storage, and delivery of fuel.
>> If there is a question of oxidation the fuel goes to
>> my
>> heating system, not the cars.
>> Tom
>>> It is nice indeed that someone finally took this side
>> of
>>> biodiesel
>>> quality to debate. The years of experience that you
>>> are
>>> referring to is
>>> something that I have not seen documented anywhere,
>>> can
>>> even less judge
>>> the relevance. It is well known that the CEN 14214 is
>>> tailored for rape
>>> seed oil as raw material and there has been a lot of
>>> critisism for that.
>>> The reason for this tailorship is unknown but it
>>> smells
>>> politics and
>>> even nationalism. What is even more disturbing is
that
>>> the use of
>>> anti-oxidants is not aloud in the CEN, in order to
>>> meet
>>> the parameters.
>>> The truth today is that good rape seed oil is so
>>> expensive that almost
>>> no biodiesel producer can use that raw material.
>>> It is good with quality, of course, but defining
>> quality
>>> is another cup
>>> of tea.
>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:59:41 -0400 (EDT), "Thomas
>> Kelly"
>>> <ontheh...@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>> The latest national survey of 100% biodiesel (B100)
>>>>>"blend stock" samples by the U.S. Department of
>> Energy's
>>>>>National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) found
that
>>>> 95% >of the samples from 2011-12 met ASTM
>>>> International
>>>> fuel >quality specifications.
>>>> ......
>>>>> "The survey showed a major improvement over results
>>>>> from
>>>>> previous years," NREL Senior Chemist Teresa Alleman
>>>>> said.
>>>> {samples}
>>>>> .... were tested for a range of critical properties,
>>>> such >as free and total glycerin content, metals
>>>> content, and >cloud point
>>>> that could have an immediate impact on
operability.
>>>> "immediate impact on operability"
>>>> I'd like my diesel engine to run trouble-free for
>>>> many
>>>> thousands of miles.
>>>> Why do vehicle manufacturers maintain warrantees
on
>>>> their vehicles that run on biodiesel (B100) that
meets
>>>> CEN standards (European Committee for
>>>> Standardization),
>>>> but void warrantees on the same vehicles when run on
>>>> B100
>>>> made in countries that used ASTM standards (American
>>>> Society for Testing and Materials)?
>>>> A major concern has been the tendency of the fuel
>>>> to
>>>> oxidize. This tendency is indicated by Iodine Value
>>>> (IV) which is part of CEN standards, but not ASTM
>>>> standards.
>>>> All vegetable oils and the biodiesel made from them
>>>> will
>>>> eventually oxidize forming a varnish-like goo. Iodine
>>>> value has been presumed to accurately indicate the
>>>> tendency of oil, and the biodiesel made from it, to
>>>> oxidize.
>>>> Many Biodiesel fuel standards specify an upper
>>>> limit
>>>> for iodine value of biodiesel. For example, Europe's
>>>> EN14214 specification allows a maximum of 120 for the
>>>> Iodine number, Germany's DIN 51606 tops out at 115.
>>>> The
>>>> USA ASTM D6751 does not specify an Iodine value.
>>>> It might be noted that the European and German
>>>> specifications result in a defacto ban on Soy based
>>>> biodiesel as it's iodine value is above the
acceptable
>>>> limit.
>>>> While the European standards' iodine value
measures
>>>> the
>>>> number of double bonds in the hydrocarbon chains,
>>>> there
>>>> is some dispute as to whether or not it is a reliable
>>>> indication of actual oxidation tendency. (Position of
>>>> the double bonds in the molecule, contamination with
>>>> metals, and other factors may play a significant
>>>> role).
>>>> ASTM now includes an "Oxidation Stability Index"
>>>> (OSI).
>>>> It attempts to determine actual oxidation of
biodiesel
>>>> as
>>>> measured by changes in electrical conductivity after
>>>> "air
>>>> flow" exposure.
>>>> It is interesting to note what the CEN and ASTM
>>>> consider to be acceptable oxidation tendencies,
>>>> whether
>>>> determined by by Iodine Value or OSI. The CEN accepts
>>>> Iodine Values below 120, which allows for biodiesel
>>>> made from rapeseed and other oils, but not from soy.
>>>> I believe CEN now includes OSI values (6.0 and up)
>>>> that
>>>> allow for the same rapeseed biodiesel, but still
>>>> excludes
>>>> biodiesel made from soy. The ASTM accepts biodiesel
>> with
>>>> much lower OSI values, which, coincidently, includes
>>>> biodiesel made from soy oil.
>>>> While some say that the CEN standard is
>>>> "arbitrarily
>>>> high". I'm not sure "arbitrary" is appropriate when
>>>> applied to a standard that is based on years of
>>>> experience. More likely, the ASTM standard that
allows
>>>> for soy-based biodiesel is dangerously low.
>>>> Note: Veg oil and the biodiesel made from it are
>>>> relatively stable. Once oxidation starts the rate of
>>>> oxidation rapidly accelerates. This point at which
>>>> oxidation becomes clearly measurable is called the
>>>> "Induction Period" (OS-IP). The higher the number,
(in
>>>> hours) the better the oil or biodiesel "resists"
>>>> oxidation.
>>>> Note: The low OS-IP number allowed in ASTM standards
>> has
>>>> been defended by some by citing a study in which
>>>> biodiesel
>>>> made from various veg oils (with various OS-IP's)
>> fueled
>>>> engines which were ultimately disassembled and found
>>>> to
>>>> have "no significant differences in build-up on
>>>> surfaces."
>>>> This suggests that little or no oxidation occurred
>>>> during
>>>> the high temp and pressure of combustion in the
>> engines,
>>>> regardless of oxidation stability values.
>>>> The problem with this is that a major concern with
>>>> oxidation involves storage. Although the test to
>>>> determine OS-IP is performed on biodiesel at elevated
>>>> temp (110C) and with enhanced exposure to air, the
>>>> resulting OS-IP is given in hours. Fuel with low
OS-IP
>>>> values that which has been stored for long periods
may
>>>> well contain varnish-like products of oxidation that
>>>> we
>>>> wouldn't want to put in our fuel tanks.
>>>> Consider that fresh biodiesel mixed with older
fuel
>>>> in
>>>> a storage tank, might well be exposed to the very
>>>> oxidation products that will accelerate oxidation. It
>>>> would seem prudent to go with high, yet achievable
>>>> Oxidation Stability values even if soy oil, a
>>>> convenient and profitable feedstock, may have to be
>>>> excluded from biodiesel destined for our vehicles. (I
>>>> have used biodiesel made from soy to heat my house
and
>>>> provide domestic hot water for about 10 years w/o
>>>> problem. It's easier and cheaper to change a nozzle
on
>>>> a burner than to replace injectors/fuel pumps on
>>>> cars.)
>>>> An interesting reference article:
>>>> http://www.oleotek.org/FichiersUpload/Softsystem/NRCan-OLEOTEK
Study of the Rancimat Test Method in Measuring
>>>> the Oxidation Stability of Biodiesel Ester and Blends
>>>> NRCan project # CO414 CETC-327
>>>> By
>>>> David Berthiaume
>>>> Alain Tremblay
>>>> OLEOTEK Inc.
>>>> Tom
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> http://www.sciencecodex.com/nrel_survey_shows_dramatic_improvement_in_b100_biodiesel_quality-110510
>> NREL survey shows dramatic improvement in B100
>>>>> biodiesel
>>>>> quality
>>>>> Posted By News On April 16, 2013 - 5:00pm
>>>>> The latest national survey of 100% biodiesel (B100)
>>>> "blend
>>>>> stock"
>>>>> samples by the U.S. Department of Energy's National
>>>>> Renewable Energy
>>>>> Laboratory (NREL) found that 95% of the samples from
>>>>> 2011-12 met ASTM
>>>>> International fuel quality specifications. The ASTM
>>>>> standards serve as
>>>>> guidelines for industry and are designed to ensure
>>>> quality
>>>>> at the pump
>>>>> for consumers ââ¬â along with reliable operation
>>>>> of the
>>>>> nation's vehicles
>>>>> powered by biodiesel blends.
>>>>> "The survey showed a major improvement over results
>>>>> from
>>>>> previous
>>>>> years," NREL Senior Chemist Teresa Alleman said. "In
>>>>> our
>>>>> 2007 survey of
>>>>> B100 biodiesel, less than half of the samples met
>>>> quality
>>>>> specifications. More stringent quality requirements,
>>>> along
>>>>> with the
>>>>> voluntary BQ-9000 quality management program, are
>> among
>>>>> the reasons for
>>>>> this marked improvement."
>>>>> B100 is not commonly used as a fuel, but is blended
>>>>> with
>>>>> petroleum
>>>>> diesel, typically in blends up to 20%, and has been
>>>>> part
>>>>> of the
>>>>> industry's steady growth in the past decade. B100
>>>>> production increased
>>>>> from 27.9 million gallons in 2004 to more than 1
>>>>> billion
>>>>> gallons in 2012.
>>>>> For the most recent survey conducted from August
2011
>>>>> to
>>>>> February 2012,
>>>>> NREL researchers collected fuel samples from 53
>>>> producers
>>>>> and 14
>>>>> terminals from across the United States. Terminals
>> from
>>>>> the East and
>>>>> West Coasts, the Rocky Mountain region, and the
>> Midwest
>>>>> were tested for
>>>>> a range of critical properties, such as free and
>>>>> total
>>>>> glycerin content,
>>>>> metals content, and cloud point that could have an
>>>>> immediate impact on
>>>>> operability.
>>>>> To ensure product quality, ASTM published the first
>>>>> B100
>>>>> quality
>>>>> standards in 2002. ASTM International does not
>>>>> enforce
>>>>> fuel quality, but
>>>>> it is a leader in the development and delivery of
>>>>> international
>>>>> voluntary consensus standards. Its specifications
are
>>>>> frequently adopted
>>>>> by state and local governments to ensure fuel
quality
>>>> and
>>>>> are monitored
>>>>> by industry members. NREL is among the organizations
>>>>> participating in
>>>>> the development of standards.
>>>>> Source: DOE/National Renewable Energy Laboratory
>>>>> http://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2013/2171.html
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list
>>>>> Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
>>>>> http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list
>>>> Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
>>>> http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list
>>> Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
>>> http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list
>> Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
>> http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list
> Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
> http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
_______________________________________________
Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list
Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
