David Miller wrote: >> Is sin the object of God's wrath or are >> people the object of God's wrath?
Judy wrote: > God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all > ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (so it is > against men's sin) I feel like you are misunderstanding my question. Sure, God is upset with sin. God is angry with sin. I think that is what the verse is saying. But what is the OBJECT of his wrath? Who does God take out his wrath upon? My point is that God casts the sinner into hell, not the sin. God does not separate the sinner from the sin and say, "I love you sinner. You come here, but I'm going to cast your sin into hell because I hate the sin." The Catholics have come up with purgatory to teach that he does this, and the Mormons have come up with different levels of heaven, but what confidence is there that either of these theories of men are correct? Aren't they really inventions to tickle the ears of us who cannot face the cold hard facts that God is awesome and fearsome and holy and does not put up with sin? I was taught this same doctrine in the institutional churches I was brought up in, and one day I read a sermon by Jonathan Edwards that made it crystal clear that the object of God's wrath is the sinner not the sin. It was always staring me in the face in Scripture, but it was like I had a veil over my eyes because I believed that we love the sinner and hate the sin. Add to this concept the word of Scripture which cannot be broken, that God hates the workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5), and also David's comment that he hates the enemies of God with a perfect hatred (Psalm 139:22), and it suddenly becomes clear that I was made a sissy by the propaganda of Christianity. Now I surely don't claim to fully understand all this yet. I cannot say as David that I hate those who hate God with a perfect hatred. But I see enough to know that this is a shortcoming on my part, a weakness, and not a strength. It is just hard to unlearn what I have been programmed with all my life. Judy wrote: > and is stored in heaven against the day of > wrath and the revelation of the righteous > judgment of God (Romans 2:5). > This day is in the future, it's not now. You have mixed two passages here, but you don't seem to realize that this Romans 2 passage speaks of the soul of man as being the object of God's wrath. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, UPON EVERY SOUL OF MAN THAT DOETH EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Romans 2:8-9 KJV) Now this particular passage does speak of a future day when the wrath of Jesus Christ will be manifested, but the Scriptures also speak of God's wrath abiding upon the sinner even now. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36 KJV) Judy wrote: > As for hell, it was originally prepared for the devil > and his angels and was not supposed to be for mankind. Are you suggesting that God did not know when he made hell that he would one day cast sinners into it? Judy wrote: > People do not need to go there unless they refuse > to love the truth and insist on holding or clinging > to the lie. We will spend eternity with whoever we > serve. You make this sound like some kind of automatic thing that God has no control over. Do you believe that God in anger and wrath casts the wicked into hell fire as punishment for how they lived on earth? This is an important question I hope you answer. It kind of sounds like you might have trouble answering yes to this question. Judy wrote: > DaveH does not teach the same doctrine I do because > I don't believe what you state above. I have stated > on this list more than once that All humanity are not > God's children and that the Fatherhood of God and the > Brotherhood of man is a doctrine of Freemasonry. What's > more I believe that there is a hell to shun and a heaven > to gain.. you are misunderstanding what I am saying DavidM Thank you for taking the time to clarify. Thank you for your patience. There does seem to be some similarity. Ok, he does not believe in literal fire, but you do. I guess that is one important distinction. But you seem to have the same popular notion as he does that a loving God does not DIRECTLY, out of anger, punish people with pain for all eternity. You sort of make it sound like the sinners choose to go to hell instead of heaven. Judy wrote: > How can you love people when their sin stands out > like a huge neon sign and you see it and them as > one and the same and believe/teach that God hates > both? This is doublemindedness. I don't see it as double mindedness. I certainly understand that if a person rejects his sin, then he can be saved. But if that person holds onto that sin, I see that he has the wrath of God abiding upon him right then. That's why his prayers do not get answered. That's why he is separated from God. God has a different attitude toward the believer than he does toward the unbeliever. He does not love them in the same way. Do you agree? Judy wrote: > Jesus has made it possible by his DB&R for us > to separate them; we are to hate the sin but > love the person. > ... We LOVE God, ourselves, and others because > LOVE fulfills God's law. Is there something wrong > with this? Something you find unscriptural? There are some difficulties I find with walking this out. For example, at the next "Gay Pride" march, try to practice this. Put your arms around these men and women and tell them that you love them and God does too. They will receive it. But they just continue on in their perversion, making even more perversion by opening up churches and Bible studies as places to pick up more homosexual partners. I had a friend who had some problems with my approach, but she went to the "Gay Pride" thing with Christians who were passing out tracts to let them know that God loves them. She came back telling me, "David, I have to tell you. Your approach is much more effective. It made me sick being with these people all day. It was a total waste of time." I remember you saying that the churches need more rebuking of sin WITHIN the church. Don't you see that this idea here that you express is what breeds a church that looks the other way when sin happens? People are never truly held accountable in a system like this where you "love the sinner but hate the sin." I think we have to see that when a person sins, he brings upon himself the anger and hatred of God. That is what the Bible seems to teach, even though it is counter intuitive to what we have been programmed with in society and our Christian culture. Judy, I hope I'm not wearing you out. I'm still struggling with many of these concepts. Talking with you helps the thinking process. My street preaching began without any notions of God hating the sinner. I had compassion for the poor and homeless in Tampa, and when the city council there cast us out of their meetings as we were trying to seek their help and guidance, a message was burning in my heart so I took it to the streets. That was more than 10 years ago. My message was not one of "God hates your sin" but rather how we had become a very wicked city and that we should be loving our neighbor. I preached to corporate executives as they passed homeless people on the street, urging them to reach out to their neighbor in love. As I prayed about what God wanted me to do, the Spirit spoke to my heart to preach in three areas rather than one. I was to preach to the downtown business men during their lunch break, to the Ybor City night club district on weekend nights, and certain days preach at the university to the students there. These other two venues caused me to realize that I had completely lost touch with our society. I could not believe the reaction, the way that people thought about certain issues, and the hatred towards God. It was through these activities that I began to understand how God looked upon the wicked with anger and hatred. Some years ago, some street preachers on TruthTalk brought up passages about how God hated the sinner and so should we. I had never looked at this before from a theological perspective, but it challenged me. It still challenges me, because when I look upon most of these people while I'm preaching, I have nothing but a pure love for them. I can't explain it. I see how for the most part it has all happened to them through ignorance. Nevertheless, there have been a few times where I have seen the hearts of some being so hardened, that I spoke to them in the most angry of tones. It was not a personal hatred toward them, but some kind of vicarious thing. I can't explain it exactly, but I could see them as being enemies of God and spoke to them accordingly. If the guy had come over to me to slug me I would have still hugged him and turned the other cheek because what I was seeing and how I was acting was not personal. It was truly a way in which the Lord was working through me. I remember one night preaching and this very perverted looking homosexual starting prancing in front of me. I don't know what overcame me, but I got right in his face and rebuked him in the harshest of terms. I thought he might just clobber me, but he didn't. He seemed surprised. The next week I was preaching again in this same spot and the man returned. The Spirit spoke to my heart and told me to be gentle, to not answer him. The man got up in my face then, spitting on me (and I am certain he had AIDS), and cursing me. I softened my look toward him and did not answer him according to his anger. I preached to the others and he tried again, but my reaction toward him made him unable to take his next step of aggression toward me. I smiled and looked down. I spoke a quiet message of mercy, not directly to him, but looking away from him. His anger toward me subsided. I was preaching alone both these nights, and I think this was the Lord's way of protecting me. I've only met Kevin once I think, but I have preached with some of his guys from New York on several occasions. I have not yet met Dean, but I know him from the list like the rest of you. I have preached with Ruben many times over the last five years or so. I can tell you that I am very comfortable with what Ruben does. He mixes a lot of humor in with his message, but he is a no-nonsense guy who speaks the truth in some very wicked places. I feel greatly honored just to be his water boy. So as you can see, they can probably better explain the wrath and hatred of God thing better than I can. Nevertheless, I don't think I am completely without understanding. I'm just trying to say, try to hear the truth of what is being said, and mix it with the truth that you know. Cast down any ideas that you might have that are not really Biblical. In the end, we ought to achieve a balanced understanding. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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