[TruthTalk] All truth leads to Jesus.

[Judy Taylor]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> David Miller wrote: >> Yet Paul continued to be a Pharisee.  Judy wrote: > Not so ... after his conversion Paul was > no longer the Pharisee of the Pharisees > and one who persecuted the Church.   Check again, Judy.  Paul certainly stopped persecuting the church, but many Pharisees believed on Christ (Nicodemus, etc.) and Paul was one of them.    jt: Nicodemus came to Jesus by night, he recognized him as a teacher sent by God.  Paul was not converted before Calvary, if he had been then he would not have been persecuting the Church and present for the stoning of Stephen.   In Acts 23:6, Paul took a distinctly Pharisaical doctrine and expressed agreement with it, causing a schism with the Sadducees.  In this he specifically says, "I AM A PHARISEE" not "I was a Pharisee."    jt: He only said this in his own defense to try and divide the Pharisees and Sadducees who were against him.  He claimed Roman citizenship at one point also to keep from being scourged. However, he saw himself and taught believers that they were citizens of heaven. So far as God is concerned Phariseeism was defunct after the cross.   "But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." (Acts 23:6 KJV)   jt: Yes because the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, so he may have been hoping to divide them.   Rumors abounded in Jerusalem that Paul forsook his Pharisaical traditions because he taught Gentiles not to observe them.  The elders of the church in Jerusalem asked Paul to prove that he was still a Jew, still a Pharisee, and he obliged them and proved that he was by entering into the temple with a Nazarite vow to offer animal sacrifice according to the law.  This ought to prove to everyone that Paul was still a Pharisee even though he believed upon Jesus Christ and preached the gospel unto others as a messenger of Jesus Christ.   jt: Where does this happen in the book of Acts?  Why would the elders of the Church be interested in a priesthood and sacrifice that had become defunct?   "And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.   jt: The elders here are dealing with rumors and trying to keep the peace, it's not good to borrow trouble and they did not want an uprising amongst the zealous Jews. However Paul himself wasn't so zealous about keeping the law because he confronted Peter to his face over being a hypocrite for the sake of the Jews.   As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them." (Acts 21:20-26 KJV)   jt: Yes, well I guess they eased out of it rather than go cold turkey but all that stopped in 70 a.d. and has never been restarted. The sacrifice has been given "once for all" and the altar is in heaven.   Judy wrote: > Paul spent up to 14yrs in the desert being > retrained and when he returned to Jerusalem > and checked his gospel with the other apostles > he stated that he had not been taught by flesh > and blood and his Pharisaical training would > have been given by flesh and blood ie: > "I certify you brethren that the gospel which was > preached of me IS NOT after man. For I neither > received it of man, neither was I taught it, but > by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:11,12)   Paul received the gospel by revelation, but he did not learn Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew by revelation, he did not learn to write by revelation, and he did not learn the Hebrew Scriptures and the writings of the Greeks by revelation.  Paul studied and utilized his studies to help others.   jt: He could have known every language under the sun and without spiritual understanding all of them would have been of no use at all.   When Paul wrote the Scriptures, I do not believe that he used some kind of channeling technique like Joseph Smith did.  He utilized his learning of the language to express that which the Holy Spirit put within his heart.  I do not believe that it was some kind of automatic writing experience whereby some unseen force guides his hand across the paper and then when he looks, behold it was all legible and understandable. How do you think of it?   jt: Careful about these straw men - noone has said anything about the occult of channeling here. Not that I know of anyway. Judy wrote: > Noone is saying it's a sin to study and learn.   Good!  I thought you would say this.  It sure is nice to agree.  :-)   Judy wrote: > The sin is in some of the attitudes here. > It's a sin to allow the wrong kind of wisdom > to pre empt Christ and when he loses pre eminence > among those who claim to belong to Him - something > is very wrong.   Hmmm.  Is this coming from envy?  How does Christ lose preeminence by our appreciation for how a brother in Christ expresses some bit of knowledge that he has?   jt: Which brother?   Judy wrote: > I have no philosophy - no system of thought people > spend hours and hours trying to interpret.  Noone > listens to me on MP3, DVD, and tape player - what > would make you say such a thing?   More envy here?  It does not matter how many people follow you versus Polanyi (or whatever his name is).  We are a small group here and I guarantee you that your words and your teaching have had far more prominence in this forum than Polanyi.   jt: Are you accusing me of envy?   Judy wrote: > Why am I not surprised to find myself among > the ignorant ones on your sliding scale DavidM.   LOL.  Judy, I did not yet list you among the ignorant,   jt: You asked me if I wanted to remain ignorant, so what am I to think?   but I guess you force me to say something now.  For the record, I consider you very intelligent, but both you and I are very ignorant of Polanyi.  I hope to gain some knowledge of him.  From the little bit I have heard so far, I think we might have some commonality in Christ. So, yes, I do consider you ignorant of Polanyi, but not anymore ignorant than I am.  Maybe I can fix that in the time ahead, and also concerning Thomas Torrance (I have not forgotten Mr. Torrance). The Mediation of Christ is next on my reading list... book report to come soon. :-)   jt: To each his own..   Judy wrote: > I'm so glad that God does not choose the > wise and prudent.... he gives us all a > level playing field.   Read the Word of God a little more closely.  He did not choose the wise and prudent to be rich in faith.  He did choose them to be rich in wisdom and knowledge!  If we had to choose between wisdom / knowledge and faith, I would definitely choose faith.  Nevertheless, I thank God that he did choose a few who are rich in knowledge also to be rich in faith.   jt: Slight twist there David? "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world.? For after that the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God....." (1 Cor 1:19-21)   "... the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."  (Luke 16:8 KJV)   jt: The crafty, subtle, kind but not the wisdom that counts toward eternity. (this is from the parable about the rich man getting a return right?)   judyt   "Man in his pomp is like the beasts that perish"