[TruthTalk] Calvinism

[Judy Taylor]

From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Judy, Please consider the following quotes: When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race.  Adams sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.  Yes, people sinned even before the law was given.  And though there was no law to break, since it had not yet been given, they all died anyway even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come!  And what a difference between our sin and God's generous gift of forgiveness.  For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin.  But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through Gods bountiful gift.  And the result of Gods gracious gift is very different from the result of that one mans sin.  For Adams sin led to condemnation, but we have the free gift of being accepted by God, even though we are guilty of many sins.    jt: Must be another gospel as this was not the message of John the Baptist who came to prepare the way for the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. If the above is so and it is possible to be accepted by God while guilty of many sins then what was the purpose of John's birth, ministry, and beheading?   The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive Gods wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.  Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life.  Because one person disobeyed God, many people became sinners.  But because one other person obeyed God, many people will be made right in Gods sight.  Gods law was given so that all people cold see how sinful they were.  But as people sinned more and more, Gods wonderful kindness became more abundant.  So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now Gods wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 5:12-21)   jt: Now Jonathan is the above so even when one does not walk in sanctification and holines or live righteousness? or are we going to consider Romans 6 also? "know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness. But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. [....] for when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness."   The scriptures contain such vast and varied material that it is not difficult to surround an idea with biblical quotations.  The crucial question is whether the idea is faithful to the overall biblical portrait of God  the picture that emerges from the full range of biblical evidence. (Richard Rice)   jt: I have no idea who Richard Rice is - suffice it to say that if the idea is Biblical (from God) it will stand because scripture does not conflict with other scripture until we add some of our own extra Biblical spin.  The overall biblical portrait of God is that He is holy; He created man in His image and He expects mankind to return to this image in Christ.  Therefore as scripture teaches "It is the one who practices righteousness who is righteous" (1 John 3:7) and Jesus went to the cross so that we could receive grace to walk this way.   My big concern here is that I think most people give Adam far more credit than Christ.  We are so quick to show how we have all sinned in Adam but rarely will you hear that we all rose again in Christ.  The passage above clearly compares what Adam did to what Christ did.  What Adam did was to ALL, what Christ did was to ALL.  Judy there are passages in the Bible that will prove your point; there are passages that will prove mine (and Lances and Bills and DavidMs etc.) as well.  What we need to do is weigh the full range of biblical evidence to come to our overall portrait of what happened in the atonement.    jt: I have no problems with Romans 5 (the whole chapter) Jonathan but then there is the rest of the Bible to consider and this is pro active rather than passive. We are to be "doers of the Word and not hearers only".   For one that seems to despise Calvinism (who you acknowledge you have never read and only base your conclusions on hearsay and how you perceive others have taken his teachings) you are the strongest defender of Limited Atonement on this forum.    jt: I don't follow any of the 'isms Jonathan, Calvinism is just one of them and 'limited atonement' is another theological construct that I am not familiar with but believe it may have something to do with his doctrine of predestination.   When we stand before God do we want to say, Well I thought that what Adam did was so important I decided to make him my focus.  Surely Adam was the height of what you came to do, no?  Rather I think we will want to say Thank you for the generous gift you gave in Christ Jesus.  I do not deserve it.  My eyes are fixed on Him.   jt: Since all judgment has been given over to Him I don't think we will be saying much at all Jonathan. He will be doing all the talking - we can view the scenario in (Matthew 7:21& Luke 13:27).  "The Lord knows those who are his and let everyone who names the name of the Lord claim by faith in their doctrine that the atonement covers their iniquity?"  (see 2 Timothy 2:9)   To anticipate what I believe may be your rejection I am not talking about universalism here.  I am saying that all are included in Christ (surely you cannot deny that the passage above states just that; the passage fails to make sense if the all of Adam does not equal the all in Christ).  Whether one accepts the inclusion decides the type of relationship they have in Christ.  I can say to my mother, Mom, I now deny who you are, and want nothing to do with you.  I can be cast out of practical relationship.  However, am I still my mothers son?  Am I still a part of her family?  Yes, just not living in the benefits of communion, and possibly getting kicked out the will!  Is there anything I can do to actually remove me fully from my family?  No of course not.    jt: Shocking analogy; being born of the Spirit is different from being born after the flesh. In fact the two are antagonistic to each other. Jesus defines his brother, sister, and mother as "those who hear the word of God and do it" (Luke 8:21)   His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into his own family bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ.  And this gave Him great pleasure (Eph 1:5).   jt: Oophs! There it is - the doctrine of predestination.  The apple sure does not fall far from the tree.  Only it is partial truth which is in fact the lie.  The Word of God teaches that "All things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."   judyt