Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Christ, the Root and the Offspring of David

Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:55:36 -0800

 
 
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:35:08 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Completely bogus,  Judy.  For starters,  you are now arguing that Jesus is the adopted Son of Man.   Months ago,  I charged that your doctrine would lead to the notion that Jesus is an adopted Son.   I was referring to His Eternal Sonship  --  little did I know that my prediction would be true as applied to the fact of His Sonship as the son of Man. 
 
He is both Son of God and Son of man JD.  There is no such thing as an "eternal Sonship" evident in scripture
It is a construct of the rcc and orthodox church fathers - so don't be patting yourself on the back as some kind of
seer. 
 
In making this argument,  you are admitting that Christ is not the actual Son of Man, only the adopted son  !!!    Yours is the impossible position, Judy, and evidence of that fact is clear when we realize that you have NO ONE to point to as a partner in your theology.   Your are, in fact,  all alone in this doctrine.
 
Well JD, since numbers are always correct - should I go and try to scout out some ppl to agree??
Just go with the crowd - right?  
 
Look at what you are teaching:  Jesus'   flesh is human flesh but not "human" as we know it  (not like ours).  Jesus was not God in the flesh.  His actual blood-lineage is not Jewish in reality, but   "of God"   --  while, at the same time not being God  !!    
 
You need to get by yourself and offload a boatload of man's theology before asking the Holy Spirit to lead
you in this area JD ... Only man’s attempts to systematize and categorize what God has offered causes us to come up with something akin to Calvinism—a complicated, diverse, and irrational doctrinal mess.”—
 
You take this thought  "the flesh profits nothing and the Spirit is what gives life?" and insist that God cannot reconcile flesh and spirit in the living Christ
 
I have not insisted anything of the kind JD.  Jesus Christ had a flesh body in which dwelt the fullness of the Spirit.
I'm just saying that his flesh was not like your flesh.  His was holy and yours is unholy.
 
when the Bible says otherwise:   Paul says it this way - " ... and by Him (Christ) to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.  You , who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled IN THE BODY OF HIS FLESH through death   .....  "  (Col 1:20-22). 
 
Just like Dean was saying - The victory is in the cross
 
In this passage,  "flesh" has accomplished a great deal of good,  but, of course, you cannot simply read this passage and say "Amen."  No, you have to add the fantasy that "flesh " as used here, must be something other than what we know as fllesh because "the flesh profits nothing and the Spirit is what gives life?"  You have NO SCRIPTURE on this   -  just JudyLogic.  
 
No just the Word of God JD - it says what it says.  You will have to cut it out or explain it away somehow.
 
And when I say that you have NO SCRIPTURE , I mean  to say that the biblical writers nowhere take this statement  the flesh profits nothing and the Spirit is what gives life? and apply it to Christ when they speak of His spirit and His flesh.     Only Judy makes this attachment.
 
Oh really?
He was around as a spiritual presence long before taking on a body of flesh (1 Peter 1:11)
The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty  (2 Cor 3:17)
He gave Himself on the cross and shed his blood  'through the eternal spirit' (Heb 9:14)
It's all about His Spirit JD - where have you been?
So what is the unforgiveable sin?  Saying heretical things about the flesh of Jesus?  No.....
It is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:31)
 
That Jesus Christ came IN THE FLESH is a critical admission on the part of the disciple  --   and that is a conclusion drawn by the Apostle John.  Paul and John are misapplying the term "flesh" if they speak of the "flesh of Christ" without telling their readers what they really mean.   No one who reads their letters would have any reason to believe that "flesh" does not mean "flesh."   There is only ONE KIND OF FLESH, Judy, regardless of your J-Logic on this point.  It is not Bill Taylor who is the heretic, here. 
 
Really JD?  And what about 1 Cor 15:39?  Did you cut this one out of your Bible:
"All flesh is not the same flesh; but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.  There are also celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory...."
 
No, indeed!!  It is Paul and John.&n bsp;  It is they who claim that Jesus came and accomplished "in the flesh" without bothering to tell their readers there is more than one kind of "flesh." 
 
No they didn't JD, you read your own doctrine into the text that is written.  It wasn't even his flesh that took on
the heaviest burden in spite of Mel Gibson and his vivid imagination.  Scripture tells us that "It pleased the
father to see the suffering of his soul" 
 
Blood (as in Jewish genealogy) doesn't mean  blood.  Flesh (as in the flesh of Christ)   doesn't mean flesh.  Son of God doesn't mean He is  Deity.   Son of Man doesn't mean he is  Man.   And how do we know all this?   Judy Taylor  !!  She is the one  (and the only one) who makes the necessary connections in scripture and presents us the "truth" of Christ.  Asinine !!  jd
 
Take a deep breath and count to ten JD and then think about what you write long and hard.
 
 
 
 
 
 
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
If we can be adopted as sons into the household of God - why can't God the Word be
adopted into humanity as the "son of man?"  You are locked into a position you can not
prove either way JD.  How so, when the flesh profits nothing and the Spirit is what gives life?
 
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:28:23 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Either Jesus is the Christ of God through the blood line of David or He is nothing at all. 
You "spiritualize" all references to the genealogy of Christ,  making the Old Testament
record of no purpose when it comes to the positioning of the Messiah.  It is a shame
that you make Him to be something less than what He and the scriptures claim !!!
 
jd
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
No; my belief is that Jesus was fathered in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit
Why is the flesh connection so important to you Bill?
 
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 05:47:02 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
I believe he was fruit of David's genitals according to the flesh, Judy. Do you believe the same?
 
 
 
He does not have a human father Bill; he was fathered by the Holy Spirit and the family he was born into is that
of Abraham/David.  Why are you so adamant about what you can not possibly know.  He was born holy. David was not
(see Psalm 51:5) "Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me"  So Bill are you saying that
Jesus was born from natural seed and inherited the "iniquities of the fathers" also??
 
I have no problem whatsoever with the Seed having a spiritual element, Judy, but that is not the issue, is it? Do you deny that Jesus' "flesh body" is of the genetic material of Abraham and David?
 
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 05:19:55 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
The seed to whom the promises were made is SPIRITUAL SEED Bill and the second Adam is spiritual also (see 1 Cor 15:45,46). Please don't try to make it something it is not.  Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him for righteousness.  His sperma who thought they all had it made in the shade got a rude awakening in John 8:33; Jesus burst their bubble so to speak.  The seed of Abraham are the children of faith or "spiritual seed" see also Galatians 3:29.  I am not saying that Jesus did not walk around in a flesh body as the gnostics of John's day did - so please do not bring out the old red rebellion flag once more because it is getting quite wearisome....
 
I have no problem whatsoever with the Seed having a spiritual element, Judy, but that is not the issue, is it? Do you deny that Jesus' "flesh body" is of the genetic material of Abraham and David?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Christ, the Root and the Offspring of David

Bill you have a Greek gospel because your faith rests in Gk words  .. I wonder, are all Greeks saved??
Jesus Christ is who His Own Word says he is whether or not orthodoxy agrees and whether you see it or not.  Right now you are attempting to validate the pronouncements of orthodoxy which is the religion you hold to.
 
The seed to whom the promises were made is SPIRITUAL SEED Bill and the second Adam is spiritual also (see 1 Cor 15:45,46). Please don't try to make it something it is not.  Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him for righteousness.  His sperma who thought they all had it made in the shade got a rude awakening in John 8:33; Jesus burst their bubble so to speak.  The seed of Abraham are the children of faith or "spiritual seed" see also Galatians 3:29.  I am not saying that Jesus did not walk around in a flesh body as the gnostics of John's day did - so please do not bring out the old red rebellion flag once more because it is getting quite wearisome....
 
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:15:26 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

"I am the Rhiza ('Root' or 'Life-source') and the Genos (from which we get 'gene' and 'genome,' hence 'Offspring') of David."
 
Indeed, Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man -- he is both the Maker and the receiver of David's "genetic" material. Likewise, "Before Abraham was I AM," and "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made; he does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ."
 
Bill
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Taylor
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The spirit of anti-Christ

Precisely!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The spirit of anti-Christ

 
 
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:58:42 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

'..I am [the Root and ] the Offspring of David..'


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