Heyya Rion - My responses are below as well.... On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 14:17 -0400, Rion D'Luz wrote: > Hi: > > I disagree with some of what you posted, but it may be only a matter of > semantics. > See below: > > On Tuesday 14 April 2009, H. Kurth Bemis wrote: > > To start a space you're going to need members that are active in the > > hacker community. > Define hacker community?
Well, after thinking about it, there really isn't a community of hackers in the area that I know of, which is how we arrived on this topic. Maybe I should have said "members that are current and active hacker-type people". > How about just a community that has mutual interests? That's what a community is; a group of people that identify themselves with others based upon common interests. At some point however, some guidelines need to be placed on the type of activities the space and community is interested in hosting. For example, building some super-high-gain wifi antenna are very much within the capabilities of most spaces and members. Rebuilding the engine from an El Camino? Yeah, it can be done at the space, but chances are it's not going to be something the space and community get behind. It's difficult to define which projects the community and space are willing to support. At Foulab, members are pretty much free to work on whatever they like with or without the support of the whole group. Then there are projects the whole group gets behind, like building a DIY CNC machine or a multitouch system. I feel that trying to structure the space in a way that makes it attractive to others is clouding the vision of the space. The space exists for various projects, typically related to electronics or computing. If a member isn't interested in becoming a part of the community of hackers and diy'rs, they why would they join? By trying to include everybody, with every possible interest I think that the space will end up looking simply like a shared workshop instead of a space and organization with a plan and a focus. > > > Members that already have been hacking Arduino for a > > few years, members that have been working with electronics and > > chemistry, members that have "mAd 5k1Llz" in several different areas. > > If you're missing that diversity, then I think the space will not > > sustain itself very long. > I think you are confusing a specific 'hacker' Event that is being discussed > with the concept of a hackerspace, which is different. I'm not sure what you're referring to here. A space is where hacker-types can come together and meet face to face, discuss, mingle, and be social with the community and to learn from one another. The last one, is the most important one, I feel. To learn from one another. If the group or community possess a limited set of skills and knowledge the group isn't very flexible, and there isn't much learning that can take place. All I'm saying is that membership diversity is key. Without diversity, the space will become a limited-minded members only workshop, which is exactly what a hackerspace isn't. > > > > So before you get worked up about a space and moving and what not, spend > > several months attending regular, weekly meetings. Give it a few > > months, spread the word that you're trying to raise interest to start a > > space. After that time, you should have a pretty good idea of who is > > serious about the space and who isn't. To find who is serious about the > > becoming a member and who isn't, simply charge dues. No matter if there > > isn't a space at the present time, collect dues and keep records. If > > the whole thing becomes a wash, then return the dues. > Space is necessary to have a place for events, if not for squatting. > Space is a major consideration. Defining the Events, the types, the > participants, > is another matter completely; as is discussion of the way the organization is > structured.... Well, space costs money. Events cost money. Best have a group (community) of folks that are paying into a fund, so that the space has the ability to forcast and plan properly. What if a space is found, a hackerspace opens, and then, because of lack of income, the space closes 2 months later. What good was that? No good. Best to meet in a restaurant weekly, get word out, make sure long term interests exists, then set about finding a space and planning events. I know the instinct is to jump to action, but jumping to actions without a plan in place is a plan for epic fail. > > > > > > It's important to stop thinking of the space as a venture that outsiders > > will come to, because honestly, you will not want outsiders poking > > around your workshop or lab. > You are defining hackerspace as a geek/nerd thing exclusively; which may work > in urban areas, but not in the sticks. > Not outsiders, but members, just members who are not techies. There should > (IMHO) > be a place for that/them; artists, designers, special-interest groups, etc... > UNLESS the consensus is that they are not wanted. No. Everybody is wanted, everybody is welcome (remember member diversity?). But what is the motivation for John Q. Public to shell out every month for a comfy couch and an Internet connection. John Q. Public has to share some common interest with the community, otherwise there's no reason to be a member. Yes, a hackerspace is a geek/nerd thing. If it's not a hackerspace, then we should stop referring to it as a hackerspace and being calling it something like "shared-workshop" or "no-interest-space" or something like that. I don't see the reason to try to make the space attractive to outside groups. If the group is already established, chances are they already have meeting space, already have activity space, etc that suits them and their needs. Exactly who are we trying to bring into the space? Why do they need to be there? How does is benefit the space? How does the space generate income these special-interest groups? Charge them? Many public meeting places are available for free already.... > > > At Foulab, we welcome visitors, but we > > make sure they are supervised while in the lab. I don't know about the > > projects and tools that are planned for the space, but in our lab we > > have several large power tools that will take your hand off without a > > hickup. Someone that does not know what they are doing or working with > > can seriously injure themselves. Also, I'll say it again - some members > > projects may borderline on, or cross the "legal" line. Best to keep > > those things on the downlow. > The space just needs adequate supervision and security. A locked closet > some alarm system ..... Do we have the skills to create that? I'd hope so. Who is going to supervise? Other non-techies? Who is going to decide what is safe and what is not safe? Who gets to use the space un-supervised? We don't want to re-create high school shop classes here. The idea of the space is to facilitate creation and free exchange of ideas. Placing limits on who cna use what, when seems to go against the whole idea of a hackerspace. > > > > > When it comes down to it, you are trying to build a community. The > > space will come after the community has gained members and momentum. > > I'm sorry to say, but "Build it and they will come" is a pipe dream. > > Reality is that spaces cost money and are much more work then I think > > most realize. > It's not "Build it and they will come" > It is, from where i'm perched, a number of things in parallel, starting w/a > plan. > Finding a site, enumerating the amenities and Events, defining the community > can all be broached simultaneously. As can running Events concurrently while > the > plan is still in development. I said before, space costs money, events cost money. If the space opens then closes 2 months later then nothing was accomplished, time and money wasted. Best to look before leaping and have a viable space that can sustain then having one helluva great party and then closing. As I said, Foulab members were meeting months and months before a space was acquired. Good things take time. > > > > > > I really recommend visiting other spaces and seeing how they started, > > how their managed and the like. There's much more going on behind the > > scenes then a bunch of hackers in a workshop (or lab) hacking away on > > projects. > And I would really recommend avoiding the possibility of other hackerspaces > defining > the model by which we run. Hackerspace, BHive, Hub, call it what you will: > the notion has been floating around for a long time in various flavors and > most everyone here can grok the 'big picture' w/out having to adopt somebody > else's > vision of what worked for them. Not to say that perspective wouldn't be > helpful, > just not the 'be all' and 'end all' of what it is. Again, I don't think you fully understand the reason for hackerspaces or why they exist. The big picture is the furthering and building the hacker community, not providing a shared workshop for the weekend warrior who wants to sandblast and paint his mailbox. If you haven't already, watch Nick Farr's talk from HOPE. Hopefully it will present many of the ideas I'm trying to present here. I've posted links to the .torrent files before here, I can find them again if asked... > > > > It would be nice to see a community start in Vermont, but it's important > > to make sure there's a communality and not a few folks who want a shared > > space to code in. While that's fine, and I'm sure there are spaces that > > are mostly for "soft" hacking (software, etc), the majority of spaces > > are setup and used as workshops and labs. > Actually, i dont know that there are such publically accessible places, which > made this impetus appealling (in that scope). I don't know about others on the list, but when I'm working on something, I find distractions (read: other people) working around me, moving, talking etc to be reduce my productivity. While a shared space for coding and design and such seems like a great idea, everyone works differently, that's why we have offices and cubicals. The idea of going to a place to work that had other people, doing difference things (using power tools, building tesla coil, etc isn't very appealing.. > > > > > > Just a few thoughts based on what I've seen cross the list...didn't mean > > to offend or upset anyone, apologies in advance if I have or did. :] > > > > ~k > > > > While I know this is a great idea and the thought that everybody will come in and want to join up, reality is most people could care less about what us geeks and nerds do. A hackerspace, by it's nature is already open to interested parties. If you want to join up, then join up, no matter what your focus or interest is. But by the same token, allowing a sort of free-for-all shared space is asking for trouble and failure in a single serving. I know is easy to assume that everybody is going to want to come to and use the space, but the reality is, most of the public could care less about what we do with our wires and tubes. I don't want to get into a pissing match about every term and definition of every word, but at the same time I don't want to see a VT space fall flat on it's face because the group had the "not-invented-here" mentality about how the space should function and how the space should run, or for that matter, why the space even exists and what purpose it serves.... Again, I would recommend visiting and talking to other spaces and bringing these concerns and ideas up with them. I've read, re-read and re0written this message so many times my head is spinning. Combined with a late night and early morning and I'm not sure any of this makes sense, so apologizes in advance. ~k
