You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these
regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about
what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is
why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have
allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for
the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string
length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course
exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher
pitch!
MH
--- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot
<jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: jean-michel Catherinot <jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all
re-entrant accepted by all?
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Chris
Despopoulos" <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04
1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is
61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short
too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la
capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?)
2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar
has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th
key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead
of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions.
Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same
problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with
around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?)
So...
But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of
an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in
gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't
work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare
royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing
campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g
octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning).
I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play
more music!
__________________________________________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
A : Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc : Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s
Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by all?
Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it
seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence
-
other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the
tensile
strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say,
would
struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the
'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally
not
tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a
further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major
third
below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of
course,
one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course.
M
--- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos
<[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos <[2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by all?
To: "Monica Hall" <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25
Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye
of
the
beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a
bordon
on
the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for
those
passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either.
What
strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found
so
far
that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque
guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I
try
the
French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not
writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in
general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music.
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <[2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all
re-entrant
accepted by all?
That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd
course is intended.
Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It
works
after a fashion but it is not the best track.
I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all
his
music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All
he
really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works
best
for
which type of music.
I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
To: [2]Monica Hall
Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all
re-entrant
accepted by all?
Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string
in
measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the
notated
theme):
5
19
23
25
(Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading
is
very similar)
In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the
lower
G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can
play
that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's
written.
There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and
many
others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the
lower
octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis
makes
those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these
cited
cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear
it.
So
far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books.
But
it
really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it.
Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of
and
possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced --
Anyway,
that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really
doesn't
help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the
guitar.
Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome!
Cheers cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <[4][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <[5][9]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[6][10]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by all?
Which fugue is it?
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Despopoulos"
<[4][7][11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
To: "wikla" <[5][8][12]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi>
Cc: <[6][9][13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by
all?
> In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely
*works*
with
> fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me
any
> problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds
absolutely
> great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning.
It
takes
> a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult
pieces
to
play
> are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar.
The
logic
> of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially
thought.
> But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except
that
one
> darned fugue!
> cud
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Stuart Walsh <[7][10][14]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> To: wikla <[8][11][15]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi>
> Cc: [9][12][16]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all
re-entrant
> accepted by all?
> > Dear flat-back lutenists,
> >
> > is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who
without
> any
> > modern disagreement definitely used the "double re-entrant"
tuning
-
> the
> > 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee
perhaps?
> An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a
more
> contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but
not
> actually specified.
> I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning:
> Valdambrini
> Carre
> some (?) Sanz
> and?....
> Stuart
> > To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that
setting
> sounds
> > really interesting - the opposite way of putting the
fingerboard
> strings
> > sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to
b,
in
> b-guitar
> > in e from g to e'.
> >
> > In this interesting light just considering of getting a
b-guitar...
> :)
> >
> > Arto
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[1][10][13][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[11][14][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:[15][19]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:[16][20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:[17][21]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[18][22]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
5. mailto:[19][23]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
6. mailto:[20][24]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:[21][25]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
8. mailto:[22][26]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
9. mailto:[23][27]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10.
[24][28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
11.
[25][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1.
[30]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2.
[31]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
3.
[32]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
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5.
[34]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
6.
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du
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oo.com
8.
[37]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
9.
[38]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
10.
[39]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
11.
[40]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
12.
[41]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
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14. [43]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
15.
[44]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
16.
[45]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17.
[46]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
18.
[47]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
19.
[48]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
20.
[49]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
21.
[50]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
22.
[51]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
23.
[52]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
24. [53]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
25. [54]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
3. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
7. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
10. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
12. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
13. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
15. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
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17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
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21. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
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23. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
24. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
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28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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50. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
51. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
52. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
53. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
54. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
