[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:29:24 -0800 


Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Very interesting, Monica. Is Meucci's article readily available anywhere? More to the point, is it in in English? And better still is there a good summary of the key points somewhere!! 


Unfortunately it has not been translated into English although it has been 
translated into French.   I suggested to Chris Goodwin that we should get it 
translated into English but he wasn't very enthusiastic.  He suggested that 
I should do a summary of it and I did start but there aren't enough hous in 
the day to do everything.


You say

   "il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana" which suggests that it was a
   small lute rather than  a 4-course guitar.
"



I've heard some sceptical mutterings over the years about the Chitarra 
Italiana. But now it simply sounds like an Italian version  of the mandore 
which is some kind of survival of the medieval gittern/quintern... small, 
lute-shaped.


Yes - that seems to be the case.


So: is the 'chitarra Italiana" really just a mandore? (small or smallish, 
lute-shaped, even,perhaps, carved from the solid in some instances? But 
with more of a sickle pegbox than a lute pegbox).


Possibly



But then there is the angle which seems to have tickled Roman T:  ....that 
the chitarra Italiana is not from lute/gittern lineage at all. I've only 
read tiny pieces pieces about the Meucci article but the suggestion seems 
to be a non-Moorish origin? Or, was Ralf hinting that 'humanist' writers 
in  Italy, writing fancifully, (does Meucci chart all of this?)fancied the 
origin of the little lute in ancient Greek depictions of the 'pandurina'?



Well - not all of it and it is too late at night for me to  go into all of 
it.   But it seems possible that it was the characteristically Neapolitan 
small lute/mandora which  Giustiniani  mentions.  He says Ettore Gesualdo 
and Fabrizio Fillamarino use to play it in consort with Carlo Gesualdo no 
less.   He also mentions the sordellino as being a Neapolitan invention. 
And then there is the buttafuoco.   These odd little instruments pop up from 
time to time and then pop down again.


Monica



















    Original Message -----

    From: "Monica Hall"<[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
    To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
    Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
    Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
    guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

    >

    >  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: 
Agazzari

    guitar
    >  [was Re: Capona?]}
    >
    >>    a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
    Neapolitan
    >>    publication).
    >
    >  The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
    according to
    >  Meucci.   Cerreto actually describes it as "lo Strumento della
    Chitarra a
    >  sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana".   It is a 4-course
    instrument
    >  with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
    che in

    >  esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento 
del

    Liuto".
    >  He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
    >
    >  Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
    describing

    >  was probably the same as the Chitarrina  alla Napoletana called 
for

    in the
    >  Intermedia i.e. a small lute.   The chitarrina alla spagnola was

    >  probably the 5-course Spanish guitar.   In 1689 these instruments 
had

    to be

    >  imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not 
in

    common
    >  use in northern Italy.
    >
    >  Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the "Lauten" and
    >  "Quintern";
    >  the quintern is a small lute.
    >
    >  Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for  a 4-course
    instrument
    >  are also probably for a "Chitarrina  alla Napoletana" - they are
    notated in
    >  "Spanish" tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
    >
    >  You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things
    called
    >  Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars.   Unfortunately James
    Tyler
    >  hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the
    4-course
    >  guitar isn't very helpful.
    >
    >  Monica
    >
    >>    --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall<[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
    wrote:
    >>
    >>      From: Monica Hall<[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
    >>      Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
    Agazzari
    >>      guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
    >>      To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
    >>      Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex
    Eisenhardt"
    >>      <[8]eisenha...@planet.nl>, "R. Mattes"<[9]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
    >>      Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
    >>
    >>    We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I
    have.

    >>    Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. 
Only

    one
    >>    year

    >>    after Montesardo.   Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed 
in

    >>    about

    >>    1630 and the version of which includes the continuo 
instructions

    was
    >>    printed
    >>    in 1640.

    >>    I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was  familiar with 
the

    >>    chitarra
    >>    spagnuola and had it in mind

    >>    when he wrote his book.   And he includes the chitarrina 
amongst

    the
    >>    instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line.
    I
    >>    can't
    >>    see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all.   It was
    surely a
    >>    small
    >>    lute?
    >>    Monica
    >>    ----- Original Message -----
    >>    From: "Martyn Hodgson"<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
    >>    To: "Vihuelalist"<[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
    >>    <[3]eisen...@planet.nl>; "R.
    >>    Mattes"<[4]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
    >>    Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
    >>    Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
    Agazzari
    >>    guitar
    >>    [was Re: Capona?]}
    >>    >
    >>    >

    >>    >    Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying 
rider:

    >>    'albeit

    >>    >    later sources' expressing that I am well aware these 
sources

    are
    >>    not

    >>    >    contemporary with Agazzari.  And of course you're quite 
right

    they
    >>    do

    >>    >    not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware.  The 
point

    is
    >>    that
    >>    >    plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
    >>    (Foscarini)

    >>    >    and later 17th century so it is not possible on the 
available

    >>    evidence

    >>    >    to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if 
he

    >>    allowed
    >>    >    the guitar in basso continuo.......
    >>    >
    >>    >    MH
    >>    >

    >>    >    --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes<[5]r...@mh-freiburg.de> 
wrote:

    >>    >
    >>    >      From: R. Mattes<[6]r...@mh-freiburg.de>

    >>    >      Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was 
Re:

    >>    Agazzari
    >>    >      guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
    >>    >      To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
    >>    "Vihuelalist"
    >>    >      <[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, [9]eisen...@planet.nl
    >>    >      Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44
    >>    >

    >>    >    On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson 
wrote

    >>    >    >  Thanks Lex
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the
    guitar
    >>    was

    >>    >    >  not   unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and 
I'm

    not

    >>    >    >  convinced we   can interpret his description as 
excluding BC

    >>    using

    >>    >    >  full chords only -   eg strummed). Indeed, there are 
even

    some,
    >>    >    >   allbeit later, sources

    >>    >    >     (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions 
on

    playing
    >>    >    >  guitar BC   employing only the plucking (lute) style.

    >>    >    Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as 
reliable

    sources
    >>    >    for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's
    like
    >>    >    using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for
    Johann
    >>    >    Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...

    >>    >    Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from 
early

    >>    baroque

    >>    >    continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit 
more

    >>    careful
    >>    >    in what sources we draw our information from.
    >>    >    Cheers, Ralf Mattes
    >>    >    >  Corbetta in

    >>    >    >  his intabulated   vocal/instrumental settings is also 
fairly

    >>    >    >  restrained: using plucking   play with the occasional
    strummed
    >>    chord.
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     Martyn
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1][10]eisen...@planet.nl
    >>    >    <[2][11]eisen...@planet.nl>  wrote:
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >       From: [3][12]eisen...@planet.nl
    <[4][13]eisen...@planet.nl>
    >>    >    >       Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
    [VIHUELA]
    >>    Re:
    >>    >    >       Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
    >>    >    >       To: "Martyn Hodgson"
    <[5][14]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
    >>    >    "Vihuelalist"
    >>    >    >       <[6][15]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    >>    >    >       Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     Hi,
    >>    >    >     I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
    >>    >    >     It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of
    counterpoint,
    >>    the
    >>    >    >  way   the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in
    easily. In
    >>    the

    >>    >    >  end,   there were more composers who were criticizing 
the

    use of
    >>    the
    >>    >    >  guitar
    >>    >    >     (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked
    >>    chitarrina
    >>    >    could
    >>    >    >     be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
    >>    >    >     Lex
    >>    >    >
    >>    >
    __________________________________________________________________
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     Van: Martyn Hodgson
    [mailto:[7][16]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
    >>    >    >     Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
    >>    >    >     Aan: Vihuelalist; [8][17]eisen...@planet.nl

    >>    >    >     Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: 
[VIHUELA]

    Re:
    >>    >    Agazzari
    >>    >    >     guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
    >>    >    >     Thanks Lex.
    >>    >    >

    >>    >    >     Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just 
not

    sure

    >>    >    >     terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the 
time to

    draw

    >>    >    >     unequivocal conclusions and the question as to 
whether

    >>    Agazzari

    >>    >    >     had Millioni's  four-course guitar, 'chitarrino'  in 
mind

    or
    >>    the
    >>    >    >     instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi
    >>    purposefully
    >>    >    omit

    >>    >    >     the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments 
as

    >>    suitable

    >>    >    >  for   basso continuo, or is it included in the 
etcetera...?

    I
    >>    >    >  suggested that   since he does not list the instrument
    amongst
    >>    those

    >>    >    >  suitable for   embellishment then he did think it 
suitable

    for

    >>    >    >  continuo (if rarer than   the instruments he did 
singled

    out).

    >>    >    >   However, I'm certainly not  advocating even more 
banging

    and
    >>    >    >  thrashing about as fashionable amongst   some modern
    continuo
    >>    >    groupings......
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     regards
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     Martyn
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >     --
    >>    >    >
    >>    >    >  To get on or off this list see list information at
    >>    >    >
    [9][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>    >    --
    >>    >    R. Mattes -
    >>    >    Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
    >>    >    [10][19]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
    >>    >
    >>    >    --
    >>    >
    >>    >  References
    >>    >
    >>    >    1.
    >>
    [20]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>    >    2.
    >>
    [21]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>    >    3.
    >>
    [22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>    >    4.
    >>
    [23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>    >    5.
    >>    >
    >>

[24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
    >>    .uk
    >>    >    6.
    >>

[25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
    >>    du
    >>    >    7.
    >>    >
    >>

[26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
    >>    .uk
    >>    >    8.
    >>
    [27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl

    >>    >    9. 
[28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

    >>    >   10.
    >>

[29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
    >>    >
    >>
    >>    --
    >>
    >>  References
    >>
    >>    1.
    >>

[10]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
    .uk
    >>    2.

[11]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
    du
    >>    3.
    [12]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>    4.
    [13]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
    >>    5.
    [14]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
    >>    6.
    [15]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
    >>    7.
    >>

[16]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
    .uk
    >>    8.

[17]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
    du
    >>    9.
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    >>   10.
    [19]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   11.
    [20]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   12.
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    >>   13.
    [22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   14.
    >>

[23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
    .uk
    >>   15.

[24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
    du
    >>   16.
    >>

[25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
    .uk
    >>   17.
    [26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   18. [27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>   19.

[28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
    >>   20.
    [29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   21.
    [30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   22.
    [31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   23.
    [32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   24.
    >>

[33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
    .uk
    >>   25.

[34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
    du
    >>   26.
    >>

[35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
    .uk
    >>   27.
    [36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
    >>   28. [37]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>   29.

[38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
    >>
    >
    >  --

References

    1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
    2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
    3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
    4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
    5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
    6. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
    7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
    8. mailto:eisenha...@planet.nl
    9. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de

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http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
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http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu

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http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
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http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu

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   33. 
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
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   38. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de






























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