Dear Chris,
I note Monica's comment below about the incorrect alfabeto chords being
used but I think it incorrect to suggest that the alfabeto
accompaniment was never informed by the harmonies implied by the bass
line ("....but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo").
To take but one example, Marini's collection of 1622 (eg Il Verno and
many others) certainly responds to the harmonies required by
inversions. I suspect the duff chords found in some other sources are
more to do with the ignorance of the editorial hacks who put alfabeto
to the songs rather than, say, any inherent stylistic guitar trait.
It's analogous to basso continuo figuring where, especially in early
sources, the figuring can be very bare. No doubt this was sometimes
played as found but a reasonably accomplished BC player has no trouble
adding in figures to an unfigured, or partially, or incorrectly figured
bass. I presume, as Monica does, that a reasonably competant guitar
player would soon be able to recognise first inversions and the like.
I think you're right, it is entirely credible that alfabeto
accompaniment was derived from a basso continuo line if that was
present (or just the melodic line if only that was). Of course, as
already pointed out, the converse is not the case.
regards
Martyn
--- On Sun, 18/12/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Chris Despopoulos" <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Sunday, 18 December, 2011, 12:37
> Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not
continuous
> bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
> supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and
informed by
> practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
> something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived
from the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo. In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added
these on the assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of
the chord without taking into account the voice part which clearly
indicates that a 6/3 chord is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some
instances they add major chords when there should be minor ones. And
they also ignore the basic rule - that when the bass rises a semitone -
mi-fa - the note on mi should be a 6/3. Usually 4-3 suspensions are
ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
> Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks,
and
> all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this
way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves -
rather than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were
aware that chords were derived from major and minor triads and the
notes in the triad could be played in any order. They were also more
aware of major and minor modality.
Regards
Monica
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt
> <[4]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
> playing
> an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try
and
> reproduce the bass part in any way.
> You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of
circumstances.
> Monica
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][6]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier
> question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> >
> > Dear Lex,
> >
> > A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass
line to
> be
> > realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is
where
> the
> > tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble
clef)
> > but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the
BC
> > line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G
natural
> is
> > also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
> > a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual
historically)
> > there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
> octave
> > higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
> > singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor
has a
> d
> > and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
> > Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
> pieta'
> > where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC
an
> > octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere
in
> the
> > piece.
> >
> > Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes
(or
> > even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
> > apprendre.... theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives
> examples
> > in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
> > transposition for chromatic notes.
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt
<[4][8]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5][9]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
> Return
> > to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > To: "Monica Hall" <[6][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Martyn
Hodgson"
> > <[7][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58
> >
> > Dear Martyn,
> > Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even
above
> > the
> > other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can
be a
> > problem, but do we know how they solved that?
> > Lex
> > ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the
discussion
> > together
> > with your newest posts?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][9][13]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > To: "Monica Hall" <[2][10][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][11][15]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:46 AM
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to
> > earlier
> > question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > >
> > > Thanks Monica,
> > >
> > > But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other
changes
> > (such
> > > as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation)
differs
> > > substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar
> > >
> > > As said, maybe we just have to agree to disagree......
> > >
> > > rgds
> > >
> > > Martyn
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> >
> [16]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho
o.co.uk
> > 2.
> [17]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.uk
> > 3.
> [18]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
th.edu
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[20]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> 2. mailto:[21]eisenha...@planet.nl
> 3. mailto:[22]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. mailto:[23]eisenha...@planet.nl
> 5. mailto:[24]eisenha...@planet.nl
> 6. mailto:[25]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 7. mailto:[26]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> 8. mailto:[27]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 9. mailto:[28]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> 10. mailto:[29]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 11. mailto:[30]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
5.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
13.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
16.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
18. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
20.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
21. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
26.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
28.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
