IMHO, working on the F&P cell and the Pd/D reaction is misguided and counterproductive.
If we cannot convince nuclear engineers that a Ni/H reactor in a third party test works, a F&P cell has nor hope of doing so. On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Blaze Spinnaker <blazespinna...@gmail.com>wrote: > "The production of gamma radiation is a sure sign that the LENR reaction > is failing, in the same way that smoke is an indicator of a failing wood > fire reaction. > > A hot and vigorous wood fire is smokeless." > > Your analogy is great cause being able to generate smoke is usually what > you generally learn to do before you generate fire. > > > "These LENR workers are misguided. " > > Your ad hominem not so great. > > > > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> These LENR workers are misguided. These guys want an indicator based on >> nuclear engineering to prove that LENR is occurring to these nuclear >> people. This is a misinformed opinion and uneducated. >> >> >> >> >> >> The production of gamma radiation is a sure sign that the LENR reaction >> is failing, in the same way that smoke is an indicator of a failing wood >> fire reaction. >> >> >> >> >> >> A hot and vigorous wood fire is smokeless. >> >> >> >> >> >> In the same way, a hot and vigorous LENR reaction is one without any >> gammas. >> >> >> >> >> >> In the third party test of Rossi reactor during reactor meltdown, no >> gammas were detected. The take away, a vigorous LENR reaction produces no >> gammas. >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Blaze Spinnaker <blazespinna...@gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >>> Well no, they have detected gamma rays, but perhaps not yet definitively. >>> >>> From FB: >>> >>> Gamma - the smoking gun of LENR? >>> >>> http://youtu.be/ehvRxMYczK8 >>> >>> We have seen repeatable bursts of gamma during re-gassing of the EU >>> cells over the last 2 months and we are preparing a highly sensitive >>> Thallium doped Sodium Iodide detector NaI(Tl) and a spectrometer to follow >>> the evidence. If we can see specific non-background gamma energies, >>> repeatably that maybe even correlate to excess heat, then it will be a very >>> significant find. >>> >>> The next few months may, in retrospect, make this one of the most >>> important blog posts in our short history. >>> >>> Read the blog post and see more videos here: >>> >>> http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/follow-2/347-gamma >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:30 PM, James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The title of the FR post is (annoyingly) misleading. >>>> >>>> The MFMP team is saying that they are excited about putting a more >>>> sensitive gamma ray detector into operation -- not that it has, as of now, >>>> detected unambiguous gamma rays. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> *MFMP detects GAMMA rays in LENR >>>>> experiment*<http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/3088346/posts> >>>>> *Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project ^ >>>>> <http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/follow-2/347-gamma> >>>>> * | 06 November 2013. | Robert Greenyer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *"Well, to put it plain and simple - it would mean that we have a >>>>> incontrovertible demonstration of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR)."* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <http://www.freerepublic.com/%7Ekevmo/> >>>>> >>>>> Gamma >>>>> >>>>> on 06 November 2013. The smoking gun of LENR? >>>>> >>>>> On January the 14th 2011, Rossi and Focardi gave the first public >>>>> demonstration of the low temperature E-Cat to a personally invited group. >>>>> A >>>>> short time afterwards, Francesco Celani, who was present at the >>>>> demonstration, sent a review for the event to New Energy Times. >>>>> >>>>> Francesco Celani record of first public E-Cat demonstration in New >>>>> Energy Times >>>>> >>>>> In this article, it is noted that Rossi and Focardi had a twin gamma >>>>> ray detector set up in order to detect e+e- annihilation that was expected >>>>> by Focardi based on previous experiments. The results from that set up >>>>> were >>>>> not meaningful during the guests time in the room. >>>>> >>>>> Bob Greenyer was keen to understand more about this event, so in the >>>>> day following ICCF-18, he quizzed Francesco on the matter. Here is a fresh >>>>> account of that event. >>>>> >>>>> Francesco was sitting down with other scientists and guests waiting to >>>>> be called in for the demonstration, they were 7 – 8m away from E-Cat which >>>>> was behind a door in another room. >>>>> >>>>> Francesco had 2 gamma detectors with him, 1 very cheap and 1 very >>>>> expensive battery operated 1.25” NaI(TI) detection range of 25keV to 2000 >>>>> keV. >>>>> >>>>> He notes that the background in Frascatti is normally around 120 >>>>> because of local geology, but in Bologna it is 60, Francesco Celani set >>>>> the >>>>> detectors accordingly and the assembled group sat there patiently waiting. >>>>> >>>>> Suddenly and for about 1 second, both detectors topped out 1000+ >>>>> counts PER SECOND and sounded their alarms (they could not show any more). >>>>> Several of the invited observers considered literally running from the >>>>> building as it was speculated that Rossi might be leveraging a radioactive >>>>> source in his experiment. Why such concern? Well, radiation falls off >>>>> according to Newtons 1/d^2 law as you can see here. >>>>> >>>>> Plugging the minimum 1000 counts per second and 8 meters into the >>>>> formula would mean that 50cm from the E-Cat, the counts would be over a >>>>> quarter million per second - not good! >>>>> >>>>> However, luckily the momentary signal collapsed and about two minutes >>>>> later, Rossi came into the waiting room to invite people in to see the >>>>> E-cat saying “the reaction has started”. >>>>> >>>>> Francesco and the rest of the invited guests then went into the room >>>>> where the E-Cat was. Whilst in that room and using the NaI(TI) near the >>>>> operating reactor, there was a 50-100% count increase over background >>>>> which >>>>> was erratic. Francesco decided to try and get a spectra from the detector, >>>>> in order to understand what might be going on and so he switched mode on >>>>> the detector. Rossi however saw what he was doing, got upset and Celani >>>>> was >>>>> told to stop the measurements, which he did. >>>>> >>>>> In addition, Celani said that he noted a number of gas cylinders in >>>>> the room – but that it would only be speculation to say what they were. If >>>>> E-Cats do indeed produce high gamma busts prepping for 'switch on' or >>>>> elevated emissions during operation, that might explain challenges in >>>>> getting domestic certification and the determination to keep below a fixed >>>>> cop and using staged cascades of small to big E-Cats to create larger >>>>> effective COPs. >>>>> >>>>> Whatever happened that day, Francesco Celani started investigating >>>>> surface modified transition metals with hydrogen the following month. >>>>> Inverse Square Law >>>>> >>>>> To help understand the inverse square law we made this little video. >>>>> >>>>> Comparing the 1100 counts per minute at 2 cm from source in that video >>>>> to being 8m away, gives around 0.007 counts per minute - i.e. not >>>>> meaningful contribution to the 25 or so background. Hopefully this gives a >>>>> sense of why there was such excitement at the momentary signal in January >>>>> 14, 2011. >>>>> >>>>> Celani >>>>> >>>>> After the end of ICCF-18 conference dinner, Bob found himself in a >>>>> conversation opposite Francesco Celani and a prominent government funded >>>>> scientist. Celani was told essentially that the levels of excess reported >>>>> were basically not significant enough to avoid being dismissed and that >>>>> what was needed as solid evidence of LENR was either transmutation or >>>>> particle/ray emission. >>>>> >>>>> Francesco then said, that when he was testing his wire with Deuterium, >>>>> he got gamma emissions, the scientist asked if it was explored but Celani >>>>> said no because he was looking for excess heat and actually, that >>>>> experiment just produced a clear negative result. Martin Fleischmann >>>>> Memorial Project (MFMP) >>>>> >>>>> For the MFMP, this year has largely been about differential >>>>> experiments, first the Steel and Glass, then the US dual cells and more >>>>> recently, the calibrated dual Celani cells in France. In this latter >>>>> experiment, the first of the active wires completed loading and moved into >>>>> apparent excess heat after around six days and stayed firmly positive in >>>>> favour of the active cell for more than 30 days. >>>>> >>>>> EU dual differential cells >>>>> >>>>> At one point, before the powering of the second wire, the active cell >>>>> input power was reduced by around 2.5W. The differential dropped to zero, >>>>> indicating that it took 2.5 more watts to raise the passive cell to the >>>>> same average external temperature. >>>>> >>>>> Rough calculation assuming that only the actively powered wire is >>>>> producing apparent excess - which given that the 280L looked like it was >>>>> still loading, was a fair assumption. >>>>> >>>>> (2.5W / 42.5W) * 100 = 5.9% apparent excess, this is in line with >>>>> other experiments we have performed. >>>>> >>>>> 2.5W *(1 / 0.275g [approximate weight of wire]) = 9.1W/g >>>>> >>>>> Celani says the wires he is supplying us should show excess of between >>>>> 5W/g and 50W/g. This is in that range. >>>>> >>>>> Putting this in context, in theory 1kg of this wire would yield >>>>> approximately 910W. >>>>> >>>>> But that is not what got us excited! >>>>> >>>>> The experiment had an annoying leak in the control cell and since the >>>>> cells were bridged by a small pipe for pressure equalisation, Mathieu >>>>> found >>>>> he had to re-fill the cells every 48 hours or so. This leak was a bug he >>>>> wanted to fix, and indeed, he made the replacement flange, but because the >>>>> cells were producing good data, he stopped short of actually doing the >>>>> repair. That might be a very important decision! >>>>> >>>>> Adjacent to the cells he had placed an unshielded geiger counter that >>>>> normally registered around 22 counts per minute dropping to 12 and rising >>>>> to around 30. In September 2013, he noticed that each time he refilled the >>>>> cells, shortly afterwards, the counts leapt up to around 60-90. He waited >>>>> for the same process to repeat a few times before informing the team. With >>>>> the above knowledge about previous events – the team started to appeal for >>>>> a NaI(Tl) and related equipment around the end of September. >>>>> >>>>> To our great delight, Jean-Paul Biberian supplied an old, but rather >>>>> excellent, LARGE, Thallium doped Sodium Iodide detector/photon multiplier >>>>> - >>>>> NaI (Tl). The downside was that the associated electronics for driving it >>>>> and analysing the spectrum of gamma energies was broken and not practical >>>>> to replace. What to do? Normally this kind of hardware is expensive and we >>>>> just did not have the funds... we were starting to feel the pain of many a >>>>> scientist the world over, great potential experiment, nearly there, but no >>>>> way of seeing it through. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, Mathieu had found a detector driver and spectrometry >>>>> solution that might be affordable, called Gamma Spectacular, they might >>>>> just have got a solution for us. >>>>> >>>>> Gamma Spectacular website >>>>> >>>>> Then, as if by magic, Marissa Little from Earthtech, Texas contacted >>>>> us and introduced that they were starting to re-visit LENR and had become >>>>> aware of our work and was there any way to help us or work together. Well, >>>>> we let them know just what was going on and said that the most important >>>>> thing they could help us with right now was to help us find some way to >>>>> drive our NaI detector. >>>>> >>>>> Earthtech website >>>>> >>>>> Working with the extremely knowledgeable Steven Sesselmann from Gamma >>>>> Spectacular and Marissa, and a good deal of images over a few weeks, we >>>>> came up with a solution, which, amazingly Earthtech offered to purchase, >>>>> which they did 30/10/2013. We are very appreciative of this generosity, we >>>>> hope that we can make use of everything together in the week starting the >>>>> 11/11/2013. >>>>> >>>>> First we had to see how many M Ohms the detector was, we needed over >>>>> 15 and we got 2! - you can see us doing this in these images:- >>>>> >>>>> We also discovered it had a ‘C’ type High Tension connection and a BNC >>>>> signal out and gain potentiometer. >>>>> >>>>> Since >>>>> >>>>> in modern detectors, Safe High Voltage (SHV) connectors are used in >>>>> place of the ‘C’ type connectors, we did not need the gain adjustment and >>>>> the resistance was way too low, >>>>> >>>>> it was decided by all parties that it would be best to replace the >>>>> whole internal electronics so that they would play nice with the GS2000 >>>>> Pro, so Mathieu prepared the detector for when we would receive the new >>>>> internals. >>>>> >>>>> Defkalion >>>>> >>>>> In Defkalion’s latest paper with Dr Yeong E. Kim, they have this to >>>>> say about their observation on gammas. >>>>> >>>>> 3.2 Radiation measurements >>>>> >>>>> As shown in Fig. 4, no gamma rays outside the energy range of 50 >>>>> keV–300 keV have been observed from the experiments with the Hyperion R-5 >>>>> reactor (data are from iso-parabolic calorimeter experiment carried out on >>>>> May 6, 2013). >>>>> >>>>> The original paper can be found here Celani - again >>>>> >>>>> So we wanted to experiment to see if we could re-create what Mathieu >>>>> had seen. Mathieu had become less committed to the events as the >>>>> experiment >>>>> went on as it did not appear that they were occurring at the higher >>>>> temperatures with both wires functioning. >>>>> >>>>> Regardless, we therefore called Francesco Celani this week (first on >>>>> Tue 29/10/2013), a good number of times, about his comments at ICCF-18 and >>>>> he provided additional information. Essentially, the wire had previously >>>>> been loaded with H2 and he had attempted to deload it by applying power >>>>> under vacuum. He then filled the cell with Deuterium and started to raise >>>>> the temperature. >>>>> >>>>> At first there was nothing, but as the mean internal temperature went >>>>> over around 100ºC, there started to be a near doubling of the background >>>>> gamma count. They were alarmed, but even though significant, it was not at >>>>> a level to be of great concern. This continued until the cell internal >>>>> mean >>>>> temperature passed through around 160ºC whereafter there was no >>>>> significant >>>>> signal. For about 10 minutes, during this raising temperature period, >>>>> there >>>>> was the increased gammas and then nothing. Other than Francesco, there >>>>> were >>>>> two observers in the room that witnessed the event. As said before, the >>>>> Deuterium experiment did not seem to produce excess and so was not >>>>> pursued. >>>>> >>>>> From his paper: >>>>> >>>>> 23.) We observed, for the first time in our experimentation with such >>>>> kind of materials, some X (and/or gamma emission), coming-out from the >>>>> reactor during the increasing of the temperature from about 100°C to >>>>> 160°C. >>>>> We used a NaI(Tl) detector, energy range 25-2000keV used as counter >>>>> (safety >>>>> purposes), not spectrometer. Total time of such emission was about 600s >>>>> and >>>>> clearly detectable, burst like. >>>>> >>>>> 24.) About thermal anomalies, we observed, very surprising, that the >>>>> response was endothermic, not esothermic. The second day the system >>>>> crossed >>>>> the zero line and later become clearly eso-thermic. Similar effects were >>>>> reported also by A. Takahashi and A. Kitamura. >>>>> >>>>> 25.) After about 350000s from the beginning of D2 intake the >>>>> temperature abruptly increased and the wire was broken. We observed that >>>>> the pressure decreased, because some problems to the reactor gas tight, >>>>> but >>>>> at times of 80000s before. The SEM observations showed fusion of a large >>>>> piece of wire. The shape was like a ball. Further analyses are in >>>>> progress. >>>>> >>>>> It occurred to us that this temperature dependence, having been >>>>> pointed to it, may be very significant. Mathieu had already seen no extra >>>>> gammas at higher temperature - could this explain that? Initial experiment >>>>> to verify gamma emissions >>>>> >>>>> Despite Mathieu fearing that the wires were toasted (the cells had >>>>> been running at 70W for some days and were not producing as much excess as >>>>> before), we decided to take the wires down to around 150ºC and try to >>>>> recreate what was apparently happening previously and capture it on >>>>> camera. >>>>> >>>>> Not amazingly conclusive, but the background was around 12-28 and the >>>>> gamma pulse shortly after the recharge pushed the PER MINUTE average to >>>>> 40+, meaning a much higher per second pulse. We are looking forward to >>>>> having the ability to have much more sensitive equipment that can give per >>>>> second readings and a gamma spectra also. Lead well >>>>> >>>>> Because the NaI will be SO much more sensitive than the geiger counter >>>>> - we will need to shield it in 5cm of lead on all sides except the one >>>>> that >>>>> will face the reactor. Maybe make it from 2 concentric cylinders filled >>>>> with lead… however, we need the lead. >>>>> >>>>> Has anyone in France got a load of Lead they could drive over to >>>>> Mathieu with? If they have, who fancies casting a bit of lead shielding? >>>>> Possibilities to explore Is it really happening? >>>>> >>>>> We need to measure it repeatedly and with a better resolution. We will >>>>> strive to measure with a Geiger-Muller counter in more controlled >>>>> conditions, possibly lead shielding, and with more sensitive NaI >>>>> detectors. >>>>> We will try to look for total count rates and also the gamma spectrum >>>>> measurement. Finally, we will try to make a new apparatus that brings a >>>>> higher density of wire nearer to the detector. If it is happening, what is >>>>> it related to? >>>>> >>>>> Is it being caused by pressure shock? - Test at various pressure >>>>> levels and step sizes. Pre-heat incoming gas to same temp as gas in cell >>>>> so >>>>> as to remove thermal shock. Thermal shock from the cool incoming gas? - >>>>> Test with some other cool gas like Helium. Try chilling the incoming gas >>>>> more. Hydrogen flux into the wire? - Does a slow pressure rise work almost >>>>> as well as a rapid one? Fresh deuterium in new gas? - Add a little >>>>> supplemental Deuterium and see if the gamma signal gets higher. >>>>> >>>>> The EU team can explore: >>>>> >>>>> Lower temps and pressures to a few bars. Test with Helium to see if it >>>>> is a cool gas thing He has more wires on the way to try it again, if >>>>> necessary, as the September/October experiment wires are not so active >>>>> after being run at 70W The huge NaI(Tl) detector and electronics en-route >>>>> will allow for much better >>>>> >>>>> The US team can explore: >>>>> >>>>> Putting our Geiger counter and NaI gamma detector near our V1.3 cell >>>>> and try adding gas. We currently have two loaded wires in the active cell >>>>> to work with. Try adding Deuterium in small amounts. We currently have >>>>> some >>>>> heavy water and an electrolysis unit to make some gas. New cell at HUG to >>>>> test this - Replicate our heavy duty aluminum cell that we have a camera >>>>> on, but with a full size glass window on the end so we can put it directly >>>>> up against the Ortech NaI detector face. Inside this cell, we put several >>>>> pieces of wires wrapped around mica frames, and then we can stack several >>>>> of those frames all within 5 cm, or so, of the face of the NaI detector. >>>>> >>>>> What is the significance? >>>>> >>>>> So why should we be excited at the prospect of seeing controllable >>>>> gamma emissions from our experiments? Well, to put it plain and simple - >>>>> it >>>>> would mean that we have a incontrovertible demonstration of Low Energy >>>>> Nuclear Reactions (LENR). >>>>> >>>>> Additionally, knowing the energies of any Gamma emissions would help >>>>> determine the underlying process and help indicate what power can be >>>>> achieved by singular events and overall potential yield. Lastly, it will >>>>> help dictate paths for material science, control, stimulation and safe >>>>> operation that will take the technology forward. Discussion >>>>> >>>>> In the video below, which lasts for around 30 mins, Bob and Mathieu >>>>> discuss what led up to the decision to follow the evidence and the >>>>> implications. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
