Didn't want to get sucked into this issue but thought ... bugger :o) Headings go from h1 ~ 6 with no gaps; neither should they run anything other than h1 down to h6, meaning h1, h3, h2 is not permissible ordering.
Headings assist with scanning whether or not using AT or dealing with impaired as opposed to mainstream users. Additionally, it's worthwhile for this very purpose to supplement primary headings (h2, h2 or h3 for argument's sake) with a subsequent summary sentence or short paragraph to further assist with scanning. You're endeavouring to make the content easily summarised so users can speedily recognise on-topic pages amongst the flotsam of search results. Multiple h1 heading are, in my view, barely permissible only when dealing with verbose or volumous copy, where sections of equal weight and significance to the page topic cause challenges with the scrolled page length. Having said that the page summary should be an h1 followed by summary then the sections should be headed up with h2s, and so on. Because many ATs don't read the browser title, h1 headings should be readily synonymous with the title. Where I think developers get confused or lazy is once they've constructed a number of CSS-styled pages and suddenly find the h2 they want is visually incorrect and breaks the aesthetics of a page ... never mind, the next size fits :o( ... when in fact a bit of specificity tweaking would speedily fix it. Headings represent the hierarchy of summary importance, with subtopics of not dissimilar weight (importance) carrying the same level of heading until the theme of the page is played out to conclusion. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com Administrator www.gawds.org -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lee Roberts Sent: 06 July 2004 18:47 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Let's discuss some issues for a moment and perhaps some light will shine upon some comments. Drew >> [qoute]The vague discussion of "some people" not approving of skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is required.[/quote] The vague discussion of "some people" refers to the International Standards Organization. In their specifications they specifically state that headings must follow a logical order and not skip any heading tags. http://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.HTML [quote] The <H1> element shall not be followed by an <H3>, <H4>, <H5> or <H6> element without an intervening <H2> element. The <H2> element shall not be followed by an <H4>, <H5> or <H6> element without an intervening <H3> element. The <H3> element shall not be followed by an <H5> or <H6> element without an intervening <H4> element. The <H4> element shall not be followed by an <H6> element without an intervening <H5> element. An <H2> element shall be preceded by an <H1> element. An <H3> element shall be preceded by an <H2> element. An <H4> element shall be preceded by an <H3> element. An <H5> element shall be preceded by an <H4> element. An <H6> element shall be preceded by an <H5> element. [/quote] Drew >> [quote]So if your h1 is a multiple page grouping with h2 identifying the separate pages, that seems proper. If your h3 is used for font sizing and appearance, that is improper. But if the h3 is used to introduce the new shorts, that seems proper.[/quote] First, you can have pages without headings - that I'll agree with. However, once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to follow the standards correctly. If, for example, the SSA.gov site has a group of related links they can be grouped under a heading tag because those links fit into a sectional heading. Part of using headings properly is to aid accessibility and helping people scan the web page. Based upon those two requirements the use of heading tags as they are in Kim's site do not qualify - therefore, they are only font declarations and <strong> or CSS:font-weight:bold should be used to make those elements bold. Please explain why you might think a couple of sentences qualifies to be under it's own sectional heading. I'd really be interested in learning the thought process there. Two sentences do not qualify for a sectional heading in a book; why would they in a web page? Thanks, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com ________________________________ From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:08 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers >On the H1 issue, there are many people that think using an H1 around the logo or hidden text. Unfortunately, that is improper. Your H1 should be visible and should >support the title of the page. >>Yes it does... but I'm also quite confused. I thought the way I set up the page would better if you can't see the pageand have to use a screenreader. Is it better to use >>the H1, H2 and H3 tags the way you described or is the way I use them also OK? (and that would be H1=group describtion, H2=page describtion and H3 as >>describtion for the paragraphs which are short news) Kim, here's what the html4 specs say about Headings: <quote> A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically. There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones. The following example shows how to use the DIV element to associate a heading with the document section that follows it. Doing so allows you to define a style for the section (color the background, set the font, etc.) with style sheets. <DIV class="section" id="forest-elephants" > <H1>Forest elephants</H1> <P>In this section, we discuss the lesser known forest elephants. ...this section continues... <DIV class="subsection" id="forest-habitat" > <H2>Habitat</H2> <P>Forest elephants do not live in trees but among them. ...this subsection continues... </DIV> </DIV> This structure may be decorated with style information such as: <HEAD> <TITLE>... document title ...</TITLE> <STYLE type="text/css"> DIV.section { text-align: justify; font-size: 12pt} DIV.subsection { text-indent: 2em } H1 { font-style: italic; color: green } H2 { color: green } </STYLE> </HEAD> Numbered sections and references HTML does not itself cause section numbers to be generated from headings. This facility may be offered by user agents, however. Soon, style sheet languages such as CSS will allow authors to control the generation of section numbers (handy for forward references in printed documents, as in "See section 7.2"). Some people consider skipping heading levels to be bad practice. They accept H1 H2 H1 while they do not accept H1 H3 H1 since the heading level H2 is skipped. </quote> You'll notice this says nothing about pages. The text discusses identifying main sections and subsections relating to the main section. The example given shows headings used in a division not a page. The discussion has to do with the logical relationship of headings to sectional topics. Logical inference based on text and example leads to several "guidelines". Firstly, all headings within a section must relate to the topic of the section of which the headings are a part. The section must a logical consistency in terms of its content. If the section discusses how to nail a fascia board it shouldn't have instructions for laying roof tiles. So if you extract all headings they would fall into logical and separate, possible related, content groupings. Secondly, the only required heading is h1. You have to start with h1 and add subheads all of which have to be related to the h1 section topic. The vague discussion of "some people" not approving of skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is required. But that stricture and the section on styling do imply that headers should not be used for font effect. Style the header but style it within its structural usage, just as the example does. It might be considered de classe to use a single h1 for an entire site but it is no more so than insisting each page have its own h1. The use of headers is an author's choice requiring only that the header be used correctly. Indeed there is no requirement that any headers be used. Good writing can obviate the need for headers, although their presence certainly makes things easier for the reader. So if your h1 is a multiple page grouping with h2 identifying the separate pages, that seems proper. If your h3 is used for font sizing and appearance, that is improper. But if the h3 is used to introduce the new shorts, that seems proper. drew ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ***************************************************** ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
