Jeff D. Reid wrote:
> I joined this list well over two years ago. I have designed sites on
> my own utilizing tips and suggestions I have gathered from most
> people on the list and other lists. This is the FIRST time I have
> had my hands tied as to follow a Graphic Designer/Marketing "expert"
> who has new visions for OLP Guitars, which is owned by HHI, for whom
> I work in the capacity of Webmaster.
Which means now you must pick your battles. Been there, done that
<grin>. Welcome to the club.
>
> I have attended college and have received a degree in Web Site Design
> and Management. I have worked for various companies in both
> full-time and freelance capacities and never in my short 8 year
> career in web design have I ever had my knowledge or lack of
> knowledge questioned and thus insulted as you have managed to do in
> this statement to me:
>
> "I won't go into all the remaining issues - you're probably aware of
> them anyway and have done the best you can with what you know."
>
> As for the text on the left. I am working within a pre-determined
> sized slice of the graphic designer's design. I have changed font
> faces, styles and sizes 100 times. Instead of chastising me (for
> doing something you have no idea of how I ended up concluding to) how
> about doing what this list is meant to do...HELP, ASSIST, POINT ME IN
> THE RIGHT DIRECTION!
But the answer is very simple. The design must work with the browsers,
not against. The "designer" must understand that they too need to have
some give and take. If this has happened, we aren't aware of it.
Lets start with Standards then:
font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif;
font-size: 9px;
Item one: fixed font size - ya, ya, ya not as big an issue now as it
used to be, but still considered a no-no. Perhaps try creating you own
style sheets rather than allowing Mr. www.csscreator.com crank out this
stuff. Are you aware of Nick Bradbury's excellent Top Style and Top
Style Lite (http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/tslite/fullver.asp). Why
PX?
Item two: Verdana? I'm far from a typography expert, but I do know that
Verdana has a completely different metric than most of the other
sans-serif fonts out there. It's larger, wider, and spaced differently.
This may be one of your problems. Yes I hate Arial too (I often use
Tahoma), but the number of sans-serif fonts available to you is very
limited. But I would strongly avoid Verdana...
> If you have an idea of how to make the font
> size larger as to be readable yet not break the table, please then by
> all means tell me. If it is to get rid of the table, then that is
> NOT a viable answer or solution for now, but in time that will come.
Using your current "design" technique, you can't. You need to walk away
from the table layout - it's that simple. It may not be the answer you
seek, but it *is* the answer.
>
> I work for a company which up until 3 years ago, could have cared
> less about a web presence. I am basically in a weird position as the
> company's divisions start to grow and add on additional employees
> (design and marketing). Yes, I am in control of the sites that
> appear on our web servers. But yes, I am also needing to follow
> closely the assets that are provided to me regarding the building of
> the divisions web site as well. I have written a Web Standards paper
> which will be presented to each Division Manager at the next Managers
> Meeting. If you would like a copy of it so you can really determine
> my level of knowledge or understanding of standards and accessibility
> issues, I will send you one.
Well Jeff, that's might kind. But my grandmother used to say that the
proof was in the pudding. Perhaps you might start by educating your
"designer" about the current trends in web development. Make him/her
understand that the web is not a print medium, that you can do some
really cool stuff on the web that you can't in print, and vice-versa.
Perhaps spend some time together looking at sites like CSS Zen Garden
for inspiration; proving that standards based "flexible" web sites need
not be "boring" or "ugly". But to show up with a site that would be
better off as a PDF isn't going to win over any fans or strong support,
at least probably not here...
>
> Oh well..end of rant. I will go back to lurk status and will learn
> the old fashioned way...trial and error until I can begin thinking of
> myself as some form of an elitist as well..
It may seem elitist to you, but look at it from a different
perspective... You come to a list of "experts" who have been pushing,
pleading, educating, scolding, extolling the virtues of table-less
layouts, and wining about the "evils" of old-school multi-nested table
layouts for about 3 years+ now, and you offer what? A table based
design with fixed fonts:
<TR>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="19" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="108" BORDER="0"
HEIGHT="1" ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="83" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="112" BORDER="0"
HEIGHT="1" ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="78" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="63" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="44" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="80" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="105" BORDER="0"
HEIGHT="1" ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="11" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="74" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="23" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
<TD><IMG SRC="images/space.gif" WIDTH="1" BORDER="0" HEIGHT="1"
ALT="spacer"></TD>
</TR>
(extract from your source code: this is "standards" based design?)
The simple answer to your question is, don't do it the way you are doing
it. That may seem elitist to you, but to me, that just seems common
sense.
JF
--
John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053
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