Hi Tim,

> JPR does monitor the list, maybe he knows more about this and could comment. 
Yes Tim, this is true, I do monitor this list. 

So do not hesitate to put 'JPR' in your message when you have questions still 
pending after some weeks of reflexion... When I don't have the answer, I have a 
reference on the answer...

> SQL views are super powerful, but they are so “old school”.
This is true. It has the smell of the Proust's madeleine, it reminds me of my 
old VT100 console ;-)

More seriously, here are some answers:

- SQL is not going to be killed in 4D, at least for a long long time.

- This is true that ORDA replaces SQL in many places like accessing data 
without changing the current selection, or performing complex JOINs. In most of 
the cases (and specially in about 100% of the cases I have personally seen) SQL 
can be replaced by ORDA and the result is a huge improvement of performances.

- But we know also that a lot of developers are more familiar with SQL syntax, 
that a huge number of SQL examples are available on the net, and other good 
reasons like 'If it works, don't touch it'. 

- There is still a big need to access to SQL databases from 4D, and until ORDA 
will give you these access under the Datastore concept, SQL will still be 

> I’m not sure exactly how the custom data classes will work or be implemented 
> in 4D. 
I'm not sure neither, but I've used Wakanda...

> naming relations is needed to take make the code readable.
Laurent's suggestion is to export the structure in XML, modify all the relation 
names in the text file, and reimport the structure as XML. It will be faster 
than to go across the complete graphical structure representation.

> The iOS app will download data from 4D Server and put it into a local store 
> on the iPhone. You can browse the data but not change it
Oh developers of little faith! Don't you remember that this is not even the 
version 1.0...

> Yes, using for/in (for/each? can’t remember) will be nice, when we have 
> Entities and maybe even custom classes we can define. It would have been nice 
> to have a variation that iterates through the keys/values when C_OBJECT was 
> added to the language. 
Yes it would have been nice! And it would have been tremendously nice to get 
ORDA in early 90s! Just kidding...

I'm as impatient as you are to get much more right now or even yesterday, but 
good things take time...

> It’s nice to finally see progress, but it’s sad that 25 years ago, 4D was 5 
> years ahead of most other options, and now it is 10-15 years behind.
I'm not sure 4D is 10-15 years behind. 
First of all, 4D is still here and evolving fast, while I cannot make a list of 
products existing 10-15 years behind, and still existing today.
Then, what means 10-15 years behind ? Behind what ? How many technologies have 
we seen since 1984, which have just vanished in the oblivion 10 years after? 
How many time did I heard that "JQuery is the future" or "Java will scrap all 
other languages" or "No responsive without Bootstrap" or "Javascript has no 
future, for Microsoft doesn't like it" and thousand other predictions like this?

Personally, I prefer a slower introduction of a new language, keeping the 
compatibility at its higher level, than rapid changes like Angular, which 
obliges you to rewrite a lot of code between each new version.

Predictions are difficult, especially when they concern the future...

I just hope that you liked what you have seen, and I would like to thank all 
the attendees to this first new training for their flawless attention and their 
patience regarding the inevitable mistakes of a beta-version training on a 
beta-version product...

My very best,


> On 9 Apr 2018, at 23:35, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com wrote:
> From: Tim Nevels <timnev...@mac.com>
> To: 4d_tech@lists.4d.com
> Subject: Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments
> Message-ID: <9e4a63d9-8f46-4817-9d98-c17216bef...@mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=utf-8
> On Apr 9, 2018, at 5:52 PM, Richard Wright wrote:
>> I’ll be interested in learning how this differs from Views, not necessarily 
>> 4D’s rather simplistic implementation, but something like Oracle’s, along 
>> with their very powerful SQL implementation.
> Hi Rich,
> It might be possible in the future to create custom data classes that would 
> act like SQL views. I’m not sure exactly how the custom data classes will 
> work or be implemented in 4D. 
> For now ORDA provides complete access to everything in the database. All 
> tables and all fields. But accessing data in related tables is now “hidden” 
> behind named relations. That is where using ORDA has the biggest impact.
> For several versions now the property palette for relations in the structure 
> editor has a place to assign a name to a relation. Doubtful that anyone is 
> using this property since you currently can’t do anything with it in 4D. 
> Maybe it is useful using 4D Mobile, I don’t know. But now with ORDA, naming 
> relations is needed to take make the code readable.  “Link20.customer.name” 
> is not as readable as “manager.customer.name”. 
> We’ll have to wait for possibly a v17 R release or v18 for custom data 
> classes. That might be when you could implement something like SQL views that 
> can be used in 4D methods to reference database tables and records. Doing the 
> automatic joins and filtering of records like you can do in SQL views.
> SQL views are super powerful, but they are so “old school”. We are living in 
> the “new world” of ORDA and object oriented relational database access. If 4D 
> does it right, ORDA will be even more powerful than SQL views. 
> Too bad Laurent does not monitor this list, I’m sure he would be able to 
> immediately answer your question.  JPR does monitor the list, maybe he knows 
> more about this and could comment. 
> Tim
> Tim Nevels 
> timnev...@mac.com <mailto:timnev...@mac.com>
> Innovative Solutions
> 785-749-3444

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