RE: [ActiveDir] Migration Tool

[Myrick, Todd (NIH/CIT)]

Title: Message

I understand your two’s apathy towards software vendors, but to be fair I think we have to acknowledge that user profile migration on machines is a tricky operation because of the changes on the platforms over the years, and that there are probably circumstances that complicate the matter considerably.� Software vendors themselves are willing to stand behind their products, but it does help if you have a pretty big carrot to dangle, or a good attitude and patients.�   I have developed some working principles to help me avoid salesman apathy.� I personally get a copy of the companies organization chart, and use it to my advantage when communicating problems that seem to elude the support system.� Remember the sales department is responsible for three things.� Getting you the current version of the software to evaluate, access to key people who developed the software to verify the issues and needs you are shopping for are met by their software, and finally to make the sale and give out swag.� Their helpdesk and developers are who is responsible for supporting the products and you should use them during the evaluation exclusively.� Make sure there are only two levels to the support systems.� The folks who screen the calls, and the developers and PM.� If a problem is too complicated to explain, make sure a Webex is established ASAP to identify the problem and get a solution.� MSFT doesn’t use Webex’s as much, so our support system with them is more like, have a Technical Account Manager, in emergencies contact PSS, but I always get three contact points at PSS, the technician, the manager, and the managers manager.� If we have really weird problems, we usually have a PSS engineer come out and look things over.� The key to buying software is to make sure that you really understand the issues and needs for your organization, and that the vendor gets it.� If they don’t, then take a pass.�   I haven’t sworn off Vendors, in-fact I have done quite the opposite.� I embrace AD vendors, and make MS respect them.� In turn I respect Microsoft when they show respect to the vendors and address the architecture problems.� It has worked so far… The next 6 years of AD growth, will be because of the way the vendors support AD and MIIS, and they way MS maintains the architecture.� To me AD is a platform for developing network security, configuration management and identity management solutions.� My goal is to make the AD platform the best “Valued” network security and identity management platform available.� And remember, I don’t work for Microsoft or the vendors.� My hope is that by supporting MSFT and the vendors, that my skills will have value for a longer life time.� In addition my goal is to use the vendors to maintain an AD operation and lower the TCO so that a job that probably could take 6 people can be managed with about 2 to 3 over time.� The skills necessary to do all the operations are mind boggling.� Also keeping track of the operation is not easily done one machine at a time.� Especially if you don’t want to be married to the job.�   I see AD operations falling into the following areas.   AD Server Operations:� (Server Deployment, Configuration, Base level Health Monitoring and Reporting, Patch Management, Anti-virus, Backup/Restore Operations) We use third party solutions for Server Deployment, Base Level Health Monitoring and Reporting, Patch Management, Anti-virus, and Backup/Restore Operations)   AD Directory Level Administration:� (Enterprise Security, Schema Management, Configuration Management, Exchange Management, Domain Management, Service Monitoring, Reporting,) We use third party solutions for all these as well. �   AD and MSFT Network Service Administration:� (Server Deployment, Configuration, Base level Health Monitoring and Reporting, Patch Management, Anti-virus, Backup/Restore Operations, Service Monitoring) We use third party solutions for all these as well. �   AD Data Administration: (Web based Administration, GPO modeling, Change Management reporting, object level backup and restore, object reporting, Transferring objects between domains and forest) We use third party solutions for all these as well.   AD and Network Troubleshooting: (AD Replication, Network Connectivity, DNS configuration, Security configuration, Service Configuration.) We use third party solutions for all these as well.   The latest two areas to be added is domain migration and consolidation and Meta-directory.� We are still trying to determine how to fit the domain migration and consolidation into our operations, and the meta-directory area is also still under development.   I will say this; our AD design wouldn’t have been possible without third-party vendor support.� I personally believe in a large operation each area above requires a FT employee dedicated to specializing in that operation.� A total of 6 FTE’s is what I think directory operations requires. 5 operations and 1 tactical / strategy person.� Using third party products allows us to maintain these operations with about 3 to 4 FTE’s.   I hope some of the principles help address the frustration a little.   Todd     � From: Rich Milburn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 8:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Migration Tool   I’ve never used Aelita, but after reading this I suspect that many software vendors try to land the sale and run… until you ask for some functionality when they then say “oh, well, you can sorta get that to work, but if you really want to do ____ you really need this “_____ Add-On Pack” to do it.  I have seen and heard exactly what you described from other vendors, and it used to p*** me off that they sold us millions of $$ of software then wanted to sell us more while we were still trying to make their highly configurable but doesn’t do much out of the box software work – esp because we didn’t have the money for servers and people to run it much less field services!!   Sorry but like I said I’ve been there too and feel your pain.  It amazes me though when I read here that several of you bought migration tools ($$hundreds of thousands of $$ maybe) and then you sysadmins wrote VBSCRIPTS to make up for the products’ shortcomings.  VBSCRIPTS!  Something’s not right there… I bet that’s why there are so many products – someone sees this situation, starts a software company to build the product no one else seems to be able to, then somewhere it gets derailed by the same problem all the other companies had???  (wait, what was that, did someone say outsourcing?)   Things that make you go hmmm   From: deji Agba [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 2:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Migration Tool   This is one classic reason why a vendor should try as much as possible to go beyond the first step of "closing the sale". I swore off this vendor a long time ago, and I have never looked back since. The technical difficulties we encountered with their products are just too numerous to recount here. I know products do not always live up to their promises, but I had expected that this vendor would at least commit to supporting the shortcomings of its product with some degree of interest and dedication. When a company makes impressive sales presentation, then come back after hooking the customer to: 1.Promise that "that feature will be in the next 2 release", or 2.Argue that "we did not say it would do that", or 3.Say that the only Engineer that knows about the feature is in training for the next 2 weeks while the customer is putting out fires in the middle of a project, or 4.Tell the customer "if you have an in-house programmer/developer, they can write a tool to make THAT feature work", or 5.Blame their Sales People for misunderstanding the ability of their products, or 6.A combination of any of the above then, I say that vendor is not worthy of being recommended. My impression of this particular vendor is that, as soon as they close the sale, they don't care about you anymore and they don't care about what you think of their product, because -in their opinion - you've already bought it and you are not going to buy it again anytime soon, at least not for the same project. So, like a predator, their attention is shifted to the next prey.   Sorry for the rant, but my blood still boils anytime I hear anyone mention this vendor's product.   Sincerely, D�j� Ak�m�l�f�, MCSE MCSA MCP+I www.akomolafe.com www.iyaburo.com Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about Yesterday?  -anon   From: Byron Fackenthall Sent: Fri 11/14/2003 8:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Migration Tool My company chose to use Aelita but we ran into a major snag.  The tool was only able to migrate about a hundred workstations at a time.  With 35,000 workstations to migrate we were not pleased.  The problem came when we tried to reboot the machines after the move to the new domain. We started with small groups but as the groups got larger the tool was unable to reboot all the machine.  We had to write our own VBScript to do the reboot.  They have professional services but they think that fixing any deficiencies in their tool should be a billable cost. I feel they should pay me for all the suggestions I have had about fixing their product.   -----Original Message----- From: Ellis, Debbie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 10:39 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Migration Tool   Our migration is very simple, and basic.   -----Original Message----- From: Morley, Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 11:06 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Migration Tool   The vendors I've dealt with (Quest/Aelita) both wanted Prof Services.....initially I felt the same way.  Unfortunately, the products are made for people to do simple migrations.  If your migration gets complicated (i.e. simple=migration within a single maintence cycle) then you need to dig into the products.  THeir prof services provides the backdoors and the undocumented features to make life easier.  In most cases, the documentation provided looks nice and clean, but is utterly deviod of any serious technical content.   I've evaluated both products and my descision was based upon the lesser of two evils....really!      Scott Morley MCSE 2000/4.0, Exchange 2000/5.5, MCT, CCNA, CNE, CNI Senior Systems Engineer/Architect Global Messaging Services, Starwood Technology Center Starwood Hotels and Resorts, Worldwide   Phone: 781-348-7120   Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. - W. Edwards Deming -----Original Message----- From: Myrick, Todd (NIH/CIT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 10:41 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Migration Tool We have used Bindview, I am surprised to hear Bindview only wants to sell professional services... Bindview has a tools division, and the Professional Services Division.  Chip Dibias is on reader on the site and works for Bindview.  He might be someone you should talk to maybe clear this up...   Aelita is pretty good.  They can do NT4 to AD, AD to AD, and Exchange 5.5 to Exchange 2K, pretty well.  They like to sell tools, but also offer professional services.   My recommendation is to hire the professionals to come in and manage it like a project.  That way you build from the Vendors experience, and also put a serious dollar figure on the migration to get people to move their asses, instead of BWM about breaking stuff.   Todd -----Original Message----- From: Ellis, Debbie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 6:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ActiveDir] Migration Tool My  company has decided not to use ADMT.  We are in the market for a migration tool.  We checked with Bindview and were told they do not sell their products without also selling "Professional Services" . We are not interested in Professional Services.  Can any of you recommend a  good migration tool.  We will also be migrating Exchange 5.5 to Exchange 2003 later on. </   This electronic message transmission contains information from the Company that may be proprietary, confidential and/or privileged. 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