Pesky commas. That was supposed to be 'rubbish in, rubbish out.' And when will I remember that dashes done in Word do not work here?
DA On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Derek Allan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I should perhaps add to my last especially since Cheerskep upbraids > me from time to time for not saying when I agree with other listers' > points that I think he is spot on when he writes: "If I am > experiencing pain, and a doctor shows me, on some sort of electronic > scope, a pulsing nerve in my brain, and he says, 'That's your pain,' I > would demur." > > This, in my view, is precisely why the whole neuro-aesthetics thing > (if that's the term) is so misbegotten and pointless. To show someone > a brain scan and say 'That's your response to Mozart' is derisory. > Certainly it will tell me what listening to Mozart did to my brain > cells. But it is no more my response to Mozart my experience of his > work than a brain scan is my pain. > > And accumulating 100,000 scans for 100,000 'subjects' will tell me > nothing more. 100,000 scans of pain still do not add up to one pain. > Ditto for responses to Mozart > > As they used to say in computing, 'rubbish, in rubbish out.' > > DA > > > On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 8:20 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Derek asks: >> >> "How do you know these 'a.e.'s' are (just?) sensations?" >> >> This was in response to my saying: >> >> "An a.e. is a sensation, a personal experience as undeniable as a jolt of >> fear, tactile pleasure, my experience with vanilla ice cream, or with the >> color-sensation occasioned by encountering a material object like an apple." >> >> In other words, during an "aesthetic experience" the "experience" I am >> pointing at is what takes place in the aware mind; it is the conscious feeling >> within occasioned by the observation/contemplation of certain objects and events. >> >> A key word in my description of my notion of a.e. is 'undeniable'. A >> sensation is undeniably taking place. When it occurs, it is, of course, undeniable >> only to the person doing the experiencing, but to him it is certainly that. >> >> The word 'experience' is certainly used in other ways. Sometimes we use it >> with no reference to what one is aware of. "He experienced a blow to the head >> that put him in a coma for four months." The notion behind this use of >> 'experience' is different from the "awareness" notion of experience in, "He experienced >> great pain during and after the accident." >> >> I concede there may be bodily changes -- an increase in heart rate -- >> occasioned by the observation, and it's a nice question what causal connection there >> may be between the mental and the cardiac event. (William James suggested we >> don't run because we are afraid -- we are afraid because we run.) >> >> Derek asks further: >> "And even if these 'a.e's' were just 'sensations' would they exist >> independently of consciousness? (So might they not also depend on the 'out >> there' somehow?)" >> >> No. In my view, conscious experience and, say, the concurrent neural activity >> are different entities. If I am experiencing pain, and a doctor shows me, on >> some sort of electronic scope, a pulsing nerve in my brain, and he says, >> "That's your pain," I would demur. >> >> If Derek takes nerves in the brain to be "out there", then yes, I believe >> consciousness is somehow "dependent" on them, but not in a way that is pertinent >> to anything I've said about a.e.'s. >> >> If by "out there" he means in the external, mind-independent world (where by >> 'mind' I mean the combination of consciousness and any correlative neural >> role), and he's asking if my conscious experience can exist outside my head the >> way, say, the Plymouth Rock exists outside my head, then again my answer is no. >> My consciousness cannot exist outside my consciousness. >> >> Derek goes on: >> "Speaking personally I am not aware of anything equivalent to a 'tactile >> pleasure' when I look at a Goya painting or listen to Mozart for example. Indeed >> it is nothing like stroking a cat, for example." >> >> It almost always gives me humbling pause when I see what I've written fails >> to "communicate" serviceably. When I wrote, "An a.e. is a sensation, a personal >> experience as undeniable as a jolt of fear, tactile pleasure, my experience >> with vanilla ice cream, or" a visual sense datum like red, I did not mean an >> a.e. tastes like vanilla ice cream. I meant that just as fear, ecstasy, >> exultancy in victory, tastes, smells, and tactile pleasures and pains are undeniable >> moments of consciousness, so is an a.e. >> >> A logician might put it this way: An aesthetic experience and a tactile >> experience are alike in that they are both distinct classes of consciousness; but >> the two classes have different members characterized by different attributes. >> >> I like the comparison of a jolt of fear with an a.e., because they both are >> emotional experiences within, occasioned by observing something "out there". In >> that way they are alike. But they are unlike in the attributes of the >> specific experiences. We'd also agree sudden fright is different from the sudden >> elation afforded by a joke we find funny, but they are alike in that both are >> feelings occasioned by an observation. >> >> Two caveats: When I say "I mean", what I have in mind is, "Here is the notion >> I am trying to convey." This notion of "to mean" stipulates an intention to >> communicate as essential to a person's trying "to mean". Thus we can reasonably >> say people mean, but words don't. Words do not intend ever -- only the >> wordsmith does. >> >> I talk about the aesthetic experience a good deal in this posting, but I do >> it with the limited understanding betrayed by anyone who finds himself confined >> to defining by ostension -- i.e. by pointing. E.g. "the special, peculiar, >> cherishable experience when we contemplate, say, Mozart, Shakespeare, Van Gogh, >> Pavarotti, Allegra Kent, et al at their best are instances of what I call an >> 'aesthetic experience'." >> >> >> >> >> ************** >> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for >> fuel-efficient used cars. >> (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) >> >> > > > > -- > Derek Allan > http://www.home.netspeed.com.au/derek.allan/default.htm > -- Derek Allan http://www.home.netspeed.com.au/derek.allan/default.htm
