Cheerskep likes to say that words seldom convey what the speaker has in mind and seldom means to the hearer what the speaker intends,
It's possible to say, too, that the speaker has nothing specific in mind until he or she chooses words; the hearer has no meaning in mind until he or she interprets the speaker's words. Words shape the thoughts as much if not more than thoughts --- previous words -- shape the words. Patterns and images may be fundamental to thoughts and words. wc ----- Original Message ---- From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, August 29, 2012 5:57:21 PM Subject: Re: Aesthetic Ideal Way back on August 23, Joseph I wrote: Do you have one? [An Aesthetic Ideal] >> >> Over time, did it change? >> >> If so, in what way? I responded: >> > Alas, Joseph, this is a quintessential example of how language gulls us. > You think that when we read the phrase 'aesthetic ideal' there will arise in > our minds a notion that roughly replicates the one in yours. But there is > very little probability of that. > > Moreover, we the readers, are as gullible as you the writer: Very, very > often something of a notion does come to mind and we unquestioningly assume > it's what you're "talking about". But there is very little probability of > that. To which Chris replied: > "I'm not how sure you get from someone asking a fairly simple set of > questions to an analysis of whatever arises in Jospeh's brain. > > As for the questions, I would say I don't have an aesthetic ideal per > se; I do have..." > What I was no good at persuading Chris of was something I now maintain the exchanges on the forum have made far clearer than I did: I claim that one lister after another has shown that they all have been entertaining different notions of "aesthetic ideal" -- while, for days, apparently convinced they were "talking about the same thing". At last the postings on this thread are beginning to try to clarify just what the lister has in mind with the phrase. I admit I've sounded like a pain in the ass Dickensian schoolmaster as I've dwelt on this point, but it's been something like painful to watch smart people talking past each other with earnest and well-meaning passion. Always, always, try to make sure that you and the other guy are addressing roughly the same notion with any key phrase. As William has said, words don't "mean"; if the subject is of any complication at all, it's very seldom that two words will serve to convey what the speaker has in mind.
