I would be very skeptical of used lead acid batteries.
But new old stock AGM batteries are another thing entirely. I have bought surplus front terminal telecom batteries that couldn’t be sold as new because they were more than 12 months from the manufacturing date, so they went to a telecom surplus dealer. When I got them they were not only clearly never used, but in that year they were only something like 10% discharged. From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 12:52 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? Sometimes for free. Telcos routinely replace batts that are perfectly fine and need a place for the old ones. From: Mathew Howard Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 11:41 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? Right, I suspect one can get pre-owned lead-acid quite a bit cheaper. On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 12:40 PM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote: We're also comparing new lead-acid to pre-owned li-ion. On 2/14/2020 1:32 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: I repost the list. You can get a front post telecom batt for 16 cents per watt hour. But yeah, 20 cents is more like it. If solar flooded cells are OK, those can be had in the 7 cent range. From: TJ Trout Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 11:20 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? I don't know what you guys are smoking :) but SLA/VRLA batteries are $200+ kh/w unless we are talking walmart boat batteries which are ~$100kw/h, I just posted two sites with li-ion batteries with many options for 70-100$ per kw/h ?? On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 8:46 AM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote: I think you nailed it. And until commercial Li batteries reduce price by 1/2 or more they aren't competitive except in special use cases. (RV and such)... with 1/2 price drop and 2x the performance it's effectively a 4x difference in requirements and then they equal the utility of wet deep cycle. They really need to be less than 1/2 the price to be a no-brainer... On 2/14/20 8:03 AM, Mathew Howard wrote: As I see it, for backup or solar applications, all that really matters is $/kWH, lifespan, and temperature tolerance (and that generally doesn't even matter if they're not outside). Are there any realistic advantages from lithiums other than size/weight? That's obviously important for a cell phone or an electric car, but it's pretty much irrelevant for what we're talking about doing. On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 9:18 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > wrote: I only care about $/kWH Sent from my iPhone On Feb 13, 2020, at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com <mailto:t...@voltbb.com> > wrote: Chuck, if you are after high kw/h and don't mind low density, the Leaf packs are really awesome, the modules are basically made to be modularly packed, you can use all-thread. Several off the shelf PCB's available to make them into 8s, 16s packs with all of the cell voltages already pinned out, basically a diy kit is available to make them into packs and they are sub $100/kwh On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:05 PM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com <mailto:t...@voltbb.com> > wrote: all of the batteries batteryhookup.com <http://batteryhookup.com> and bigbattery.com <http://bigbattery.com> are _used_ or new old stock, nothing new. On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:02 PM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com <mailto:t...@voltbb.com> > wrote: you get what you pay for, all of these guys guarantee the models to discharge to the specs they provide or money back On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote: You should be aware, that bigbattery.com <http://bigbattery.com> is selling _used_ batteries. For example the 24v "powerwall" 3KWh unit for $699 is a used unit per Will Prowse. His testing showed 67% degradation from new. What the cycle life of a 67% depleted battery array is unknown.. On 2/13/20 10:54 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: Hoboy does she have some nice batteries... From: Brian Webster Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 11:49 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? Same here…… Thank you, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 12:41 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? I'm afraid to click on that link... On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com <mailto:t...@voltbb.com> > wrote: Also bigbattery.com <http://bigbattery.com> is another good source On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 8:46 AM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote: some guy named ron is coming over to charge my batteries now On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:20 AM Brian Webster <i...@wirelessmapping.com <mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote: To make sure you get the proper connectors, why else? Thank you, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 10:42 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? I wonder why they want to know my gender? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 13, 2020, at 3:22 AM, TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com <mailto:t...@voltbb.com> > wrote: Battery hookup.com <http://hookup.com> has the modules, don't buy them all guys. They say Daly BMS works good. Make sure you get a bms with low temp and low voltage disconnect. On Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:26 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > wrote: Do tell. Where do you get the batts? What BMS are you using? Do you want to resell? I would volunteer to be logistics and fulfillment if you want. From: TJ Trout Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 7:19 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? Guys, every chemistry of lithium battery (lifepo4, li-ion, lto, etc) are available in 1 to 10 KW modules at less than $100 a kilowatt hour most of them test between 70 to 99% of the rated capacity mostly removed from electric vehicles anyways we repurpose them into storage for our equipment you just need a 48 volt BMS to balance the cells and provide low temperature and low voltage protection. On Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:50 PM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote: They have three problems.. 1) Cost.. Yeah they break the bank. 2) low voltage compared to other chemistries, which means _more_ cost 3) poor efficiency.. You put in 100 watts, you only get 80 watts out. All of this is from listening to Will Prowse.. He has an excellent set of tubes on them... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q On 2/12/20 5:33 PM, Steve Jones wrote: these they say are good for subzero charging, thats what appeals to me and that the subzero doesnt affect discharge rate On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 6:39 PM Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote: Lithiums degrade with temps over 130 degrees F ( depending upon chemistry and if you attempt to charge them below freezing. Failure can result from trying to charge below freezing. Between those extremes they do pretty well. The below freezing is a deal breaker for outside solar. There are manufacturers ( BattleBorn + others ) that are coming out with heaters to get around that. On 02/12/2020 04:21 PM, Mathew Howard wrote: > I'm wondering how well lithiums hold up compared to flooded cells in a > non-environmentally controlled area. I suspect it's worse. > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 6:20 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com > <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com%20%0b> > <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote: > > In my 42+ years of dealing with stationary flooded cells is that you > can > easily get 20+ years from them if they are properly maintained and > kept in > an environmentally controlled area. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Prince > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 5:04 PM > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > I think you would expect at least 2-3 times the life with lithium > (almost all the various chemistries currently in vogue). You can also > increase discharge tolerance to 80-90 percent instead of the usual > lead-acid 50% (or thereabouts). > > I think the cost is still a bit over the top. Maybe another year or two > depending. > > > bp > <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> > > On 2/12/2020 3:47 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: > > Life also matters. > > > > Half the cost but has to be replaced in half the time would not > be a good > > deal. With my luck, if batteries die after 3 years, I'll have a > big power > > outage every 37 months. And it's not just a cost calculation. > Lugging > > half > > a ton of new batteries out to a tower and then hauling the old > ones back > > for > > recycling sucks. So if someone has battery technology that lasts > 10 or 20 > > years, that's worth a bunch. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com%0b> > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 5:36 PM > > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > Charging time doesn't interest me much in a grid backup > situation. The > > cost > > of the battery per watt hour is normally my only consideration for a > > backup > > battery. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Andrews > > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 4:25 PM > > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > Nice thing about the lithium Iron is any charger that is programmable > > will work. And the faster you can charge them the better. You > think > > flooded times of 2-4 hours and with a big charger the lithium > banks can > > charge at 100amps and 1 hour. > > > > On 02/12/2020 02:06 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > wrote: > >> 21 cents per watt hour. That is not competitive with flooded cells. > >> And what kind of special charger would you have to have? > >> *From:* Peter Kranz via AF > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2020 5:36 PM > >> *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > >> *Cc:* Peter Kranz > >> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > >> > >> Anyone successfully built a telecom UPS solution using rack mount > >> LiFePO4 batteries sourced from china? > >> > >> There seems to be endless arrays of rack mount solutions there: > >> > >> > https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/48v-100ah-200ah-lithium-ion-bat > >> tery_60844575234.html?spm=a2700.details.pronpeci14.6.7e40675elEWkcL > >> > >> Prices run about 25% the cost of locally sourced LiFePO4 solutions. > >> The selection is crazy however, and who knows what the gotchas are. > >> > >> *Peter Kranz > >> *www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.UnwiredLtd.com> > <http://www.UnwiredLtd.com> > <http://www.unwiredltd.com/> > >> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 > >> Mobile: 510-207-0000 > >> pkr...@unwiredltd.com <mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com> > <mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> -- > >> -- > >> AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> > >> > > -- > > AF mailing list > > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com _____ -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com _____ -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com _____ -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com _____ -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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