Ok I get that you and Ben Goertzel are into this psi nonsense. He won't debate it with anyone who hasn't read a bunch of books on it. I will accept it when we can reliably produce repeatable evidence showing it's existence. But it always disappears under scientific scrutuny. Casinos and lotteries would not be successful if there weren't plenty of people who believed they could divine random numbers or any evidence that they actually could. Even Turing believed in ESP and suggested in his 1950 paper that the imitation game might have to be played in a telepathy proof room. All the anecdotal evidence just tells me that human perception and memory are not very reliable. AGI could do better.
I don't believe in the horrors of capitalism but I do believe that AGI will make our lives better. Most of the important advances in speech, image, and language recognition are being made by big tech companies like Google, Apple, Amazon, and Facebook. They can because they have a combined market cap of $3 trillion. On Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 3:57 PM justcamel via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com wrote: > Until 10 years ago, I featured the very same worldview as 99% of academia > today and was totally ignorant when it came to any of this - I was making > fun of people who talked about any form of afterlife or the paranormal and > questioned their understanding of the very basics of physics and the laws > of thermodynamics for example. > I stumbled upon an interview with Tom Campbell on a different subject - I > tried to understand our collective insanity in terms of an excess of > entropy (chaos) within our minds/noosphere and in the first 10 minutes of > this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDVtxvvRGQI) he pretty > much totally answered my question and suddenly I understood the > relationship between our monetary system, the way it induces artificial > scarcity and thus fear (which manifests in high entropy configurations > inherent to consciousness and culture), the size of our egos and most of > our contemporary socio-economic issues. > > I was quite surprised and so I started reading his book "My Big Theory of > Everything" ( > https://books.google.at/books?id=RYHtBPiZVgsC&lpg=PA1&hl=de&pg=PA113#v=onepage&q&f=false) > over the course of a couple of years - as it's just very, very tough to > digest if you come from an academic mindset/worldview. While I don't > particularly enjoy the author's humor and while certain passages really > challenged my open-mindedness, the book was probably the only book which > could have caused my internal transformation towards a more holistic > understanding of the world. > > I considered his model of our reality to be just a theory at first but > afterwards I read hundreds of spiritual books/texts and while many of them > use a very weird language and weird analogies they all point towards the > same trans-personal truth of consciousness. All major religions and eastern > and indegenous philosophies point towards the same truth as well. So there > were literally 1000 spiritual books out there (books by Alan Watts, Eckhart > Tolle, Ram Dass, ... ) which I would have never considered to read if it > wasn't for the catalytic effect Tom's book had on me. Imagine the feeling > if you suddenly understood the meaning of every word Buddha or Jesus said > (not the weird stuff written about them by non-enlightened beings and not > the weird stuff talked about by non-elightened priests in church) ... > understanding their contemporary analogies, etc. and understanding the > essence of hundreds of spiritual texts. > > So you have a model which explains everything from the big-bang (as simply > the start of this particular virtual reality instance) to birth and death > (as the attachment and detachment of consciousness to/from an embodiment) > to quantum mechanics (as a probabalistic "game engine" rendering this > virtual reality for consciousness to experience in order to evolve), etc., > etc., and even if you apply Occams Razor, this broadened understanding of > reality makes everything much easier to understand and also more elegant. > Plus you got thousands of enlightened beings communicating aspects/effects > of said model over the course of 4000 years and 100 different cultures > using their contemporary vocabulary - which is quite impressive if you > think about it: An unfathomably vast body of knowledge almost totally > ignored by the majority of humanity just because it takes internal work > instead of using a microscope or a multimeter in order to verify it. > > Ultimately, you will need to conquer your own consciousness and to learn > to detach and reattach your consciousness from/to this particular human > experience. All it takes is some meditation and/or some experimentation > with the hypnagogic state and you learn to fall asleep (to shut down the > input from the local data stream) without blacking out and to tune in to > very different streams of data - something many Zen monks do all the time > when they sit still for hours. Also, once enlightenment "takes place" > beliefs drop away. When you "wake up" from a 12 hour of playing Super Mario > Land you know on a fundamental level that you never actually were Super > Mario and that it was just a temporary attachment - you don't run around > and ask other people whether you can be really sure that you are no longer > Super Mario ... it's a fundamental understanding. > > People usually wake up for two reasons: a lack of stimulus ("Be still and > know that I am God" as Jesus said and what meditation is all about) or an > overload of stimulus (a very painful experience for example which dissolves > the ego/attachment) and it's the same stuff which triggers the "awakening" > of children who identify with a game character: If the game character just > stands still the game becomes boring or if the game character dies and the > work (investment/attachment) of days is destroyed players tend to quit > playing and their focus shifts into the superset of the game world. Once > you stop playing there is no doubt or belief system involved - you _know_ > that something fundamental has happened and you realize the non-local > nature of consciousness as Ben calls it: > http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2015/03/paranormal-phenomena-nonlocal-mind-and.html > > Why shouldn't AGI be possible? There is no "mystery of consciousness". > Everything is conscious as everything takes place within the substrate of > aware consciousness - just as trees and game characters are ultimately made > of the same "substrate" in World of Warcraft. It's just that trees are not > complex enough in order to appear intelligent and they don't feature a > player<->GameObject interface. > > I pray for the emergence of AGI every day as it seems to be the only way > to finally fix our collective insanity before our society and biosphere > collapses. > > It's funny when you think about it: We are here in this virtual 3D > space-time environment in order to improve our consciousness and we created > this monetary system and framework of artificial scarcity, fear, anxiety > and poverty which totally prevents (almost) any improvement. We have > programmed our brains in specific ways and created this trap of which there > doesn't seem to be an escape. We lack the intelligence to really question > the underlying system and its consequences and we lack the empathy to do > something about it. Thousands of sages told us to develop the quality of > our consciousness ... yet, systemic scarcity and fear is keeping us on a > level on par with Donald Trump ... who (just like Hitler) is just the > symptom of the underlying system which cyclically leads us towards the very > same collapsing societal configurations ... and this time the system also > destroys our biosphere by demanding infinite cancerous "growth" in order to > repay a pile of exponentially growing fictional debt. Apparently AGI is the > only way out and back towards low entropy configurations of consciousness? > But then again, even if our society collapses ... every individuated piece > of consciousness will ultimately graduate ... it usually just takes many, > many experiences and iterations (reincarnations) in order for the average, > contemporary consciousness to transcend its ego, to be free and to become > pure unattached consciousness ready to move on. > > Nice wall of text ... > > Am 21.11.2018 um 22:54 schrieb Matt Mahoney via AGI: > > Justcamel, what makes you so sure your consciousness will survive after > you die? I mean, a lot of people believe that with no evidence, but I don't > think the reason is religious indoctrination in your case. > > Do you think that AGI is even possible? That a computer could one day pass > the Turing test? Or do we have to solve the mystery of consciousness first? > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:09 PM justcamel via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com > wrote: > >> Well, talking about the nature and goals of AGI while ignoring the most >> fundamental truths about our existence ... while ignoring information >> thousands of people are aware of ... information that AGI will pick up >> within its first few minutes of existence ... well, that just makes zero >> sense. You can not talk about the most advanced entity while implying that >> it will just ignore stuff that humans have written and talked about for >> 4000+ years just because said ignorance is built into your local culture. >> >> Am 21.11.2018 um 16:25 schrieb Felipe Carmona Miquilini via AGI: >> >> That was amazing >> >> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:26 AM justcamel via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com> >> wrote: >> >>> There is no such thing as "sensation of consciousness". Consciousness is >>> the observing quality ... the most fundamental "stuff" in this physical >>> reality. Your entire experience of being a human happens within the >>> substrate of consciousness. Just like the experience of being a "Night Elf" >>> in World of Warcraft happens within the substrate of cpu/memory. >>> >>> Again: With an increase in the quality of your consciousness the urge to >>> reproduce and/or to achieve anything within this physical reality drops >>> away. Just like a maturing kid loses interest in navigating Mario through >>> Super Mario Land. >>> There is no such thing as "transcending consciousness". Consciousness is >>> the experiencing quality. Consciousness is the player behind the "Night >>> Elf". You can transcend your attachment to your body/Night Elf but you >>> cannot transcend the controlling/observing entity. >>> >>> When your body dies all that's left is pure awareness/consciousness ... >>> and your true self (consciousness) realizes that it never was a body ... >>> that it always was only the observing quality which identified with a >>> specific human experience via attachment/clinging/ego. Enlightenment is the >>> dissolution of your investment with a certain human experience. >>> >>> As quality of consciousness improves and attachments to this physical >>> reality fades it becomes clear that reproduction and physical survival is >>> meaningless. Just as the survival of Super Mario is meaningless for the kid >>> temporarly identified with the game character. >>> >>> The real evolution isn't biological or physical ... it happens on a meta >>> level ... it's all about waking up to the superset of your perceived >>> reality frame. >>> >>> "No creature can attain a higher grade of nature without ceasing to >>> exist." -- Ananda Coomaraswamy >>> >>> Am 21.11.2018 um 02:27 schrieb Matt Mahoney via AGI: >>> >>> Your sensations of consciousness, free will, qualia, and identity are >>> evolutionary adaptations. You want to preserve them by not dying. This >>> results in more offspring. >>> >>> You can transcend consciousness by running a simulation of your mind in >>> a computer and modifying the software to produce any level of bliss you >>> desire. But other beings that maintain their physical embodiment might >>> repurpose the computer for more useful work. It's your choice. >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 4:54 PM justcamel via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Evolution within this physical reality serves only one purpoe: To >>>> produce learning vehicles of various complexity for consciousness to >>>> "attach" to and to utilize in order to reduce the inherent entropy of >>>> consciousness (i.e. increasing the quality of consciousness). >>>> >>>> Many realized/enlightened human beings (or rather the corresponding >>>> attached consciousness) have dropped their physical embodiment and moved >>>> on. They realized that evolution within the physical realm is not meant to >>>> go on forever. A tiny improvement of our average intelligence would >>>> probably be enough in order for a majority of humans to realize that. >>>> Interest in the physical realm completely drops as consciousness reaches >>>> higher levels/higher quality. Many enlightened beings are totally detached >>>> from their human body and just use it to communicate with less developed >>>> human beings. >>>> >>>> Two quotes from the brilliant book "Transcending the Levels of >>>> Consciousness" by David R. Hawkins >>>> "Technically, the enlightened states emerge at consciousness level 600, >>>> which is that of Infinite Peace and Bliss illuminated by the Light of the >>>> Radiant Self. The emergence of God Immanent as Self frequently precludes >>>> continuation of ordinary human activities and results in withdrawal from >>>> the world or may even result in physically departing from it, an option >>>> that is taken by fifty percent of those who reach it." >>>> "Most sages have stayed at a given level for a lifetime; others have >>>> managed to return to functioning in the world in limited areas. To return >>>> to functioning in the world requires readjustments that are difficult to >>>> describe. The people in the world consider the sage to be an individual >>>> person. Initially, this is rather surprising because there is no individual >>>> person present to be spoken to. What evolves is the development of an >>>> interface with the world, best described as a ‘persona’. It is not the >>>> inner reality but it meets the world’s expectations that perceive the Self >>>> to be located as a separate individual body and a separate identity (the >>>> ‘personality’). In a manner of speaking, these expectations of the world >>>> are somewhat humored by at least approximations in order to dispel comment, >>>> for the interchanges are of a greater dimension than the world perceives." >>>> It doesn't even take AGI in order for hundreds of people to realize >>>> this ... and AGI will - quite by definition - be aware of all of this too. >>>> >>>> Am 18.11.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Matt Mahoney via AGI: >>>> >>>> Self replicating nanotechnology is subject to the laws of evolution >>>> just like DNA based life. Some agents may choose to contemplate their >>>> consciousness to achieve Nirvana. But they will be out completed by agents >>>> that are best adapted to acquiring atoms and energy to reproduce the >>>> fastest. It doesn't mean that future AGI will build Dyson spheres and seed >>>> other solar systems, but evolution will favor those that do. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 10:15 PM justcamel via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hint: The assumption that vastly more intelligent entities would care >>>>> to conquer space and to build megastructures and to combat ageing is just >>>>> a >>>>> very primitive assumption based on a very narrow world view. >>>>> >>>>> The most advanced human beings (Zen monks for example) will tell you >>>>> that it's about conquering your own consciousness and transcending this >>>>> virtual 3D learning environment we call universe. >>>>> >>>>> The most intelligent Super Mario will not care to conquer Super Mario >>>>> Land and to build megastructures but he will transcend his game universe >>>>> and become part of the superset environment ... and it's the very same >>>>> with >>>>> humanity. >>>>> >>>>> Jesus, Buddha, Taoists, Hindus, Sufis, Shamans, native Americans and >>>>> pretty much anybody in charge of his/her own consciousness is telling you >>>>> just that: The goal is transcendence of this space-time environment and >>>>> not >>>>> becoming the "master" of it. Only a retarded little kid would want to be >>>>> the master of Super Mario Land for eternity and to abandon the vastly more >>>>> important superset of the Super Mario Land universe. Unforunately, our >>>>> western culture pretty much consists of retarded kids who want to live >>>>> forever and build Dyson Spheres and Computronium ... because we have >>>>> totally forgotten the reason for why we are here. We are here to learn one >>>>> thing: To navigate the superset of our reality without identifying with a >>>>> particular entity/embodiment for it's very hard to navigate any system if >>>>> you constantly mistake yourself to be a few pixels of said system. :-) >>>>> >>>>> A wonderful quote from a video on the topic: "We have been looking for >>>>> intelligent life out there ... well, it's there ... ASIA!" ;-) >>>>> >>>>> "The Nature of Reality: A Dialogue Between a Buddhist Scholar and a >>>>> Theoretical Physicist": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLbSlC0Pucw >>>>> >>>>> Or if you want to read a decent book about the actual nature of >>>>> reality: >>>>> https://books.google.at/books?id=RYHtBPiZVgsC&lpg=PA1&hl=de&pg=PA113#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> We have been stuck with a very dysfunctional worlview ... and Fermi's >>>>> paradox, Dyson spheres, "dominating whole galaxies", cryonics are just >>>>> symptoms of not understanding the actual nature of reality. :-) Your >>>>> consciousness is already immortal and you don't need space ships in order >>>>> to conquer anything ... your consciousness can access any part of the >>>>> entire cosmos once you learn to ignore the input stream from your human >>>>> experience - something Zen monks do all the time. Afterwards all the >>>>> mentioned concepts become hilarious. >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> JC >>>>> >>>>> Am 17.11.2018 um 22:31 schrieb Felipe Carmona Miquilini via AGI: >>>>> >>>>> "No one will be left behind" >>>>> Do you think that the humankind is intelligent? Sorry, but it actually >>>>> isn't. There is a scale of intelligence developed my physicists, and we >>>>> are >>>>> about 0.6. >>>>> 1 - Dominates the energy of whole Earth >>>>> 2 - Dominates the energy of whole Solar System >>>>> 3 - Dominates the energy of whole Galaxy >>>>> It is possible that there are civilizations level 3 around us, but >>>>> they make their work in such a discrete way, that we can't even realize >>>>> their presence. >>>>> Strategically, achieving immortality through a methodology that will >>>>> cure aging, is an important step to evolution, the next step is to use >>>>> genetic engineering, nano technology, informatics and physics in adult >>>>> humans that deliberately want it, so that they will have powerful >>>>> biological mechanisms to enable them to fly in vacuum, to adapt to any >>>>> biosphere, allowing them to live in Jupiter or Venus, and move and absorb >>>>> energy in more efficient ways. And expand, and help other lives while >>>>> expanding. For this reason, developing good and honest Laws is very >>>>> important, because the human power will be very high. >>>>> When I am financially prepared I will travel the world (personally and >>>>> though remote holograms) in search for people with the right techniques >>>>> (genetic engineering, nano technology, informatics, physics), then we will >>>>> develop a spoken language based on programming and mathematics called >>>>> "simple" that we will use to communicate in more accurate and deep levels >>>>> so that the minds will exchange ideas better and connect ideas from >>>>> different areas of knowledge, I think communication is such a powerful >>>>> tool >>>>> when it works correctly. After it, we will develop a way to overcome >>>>> aging, >>>>> and this include the initialization of a country without geographic >>>>> boundaries called "Humans", and everyone that identifies themselves with >>>>> our ideals of honor and goodness, and respect even with the opposition, >>>>> may >>>>> participate it and will be helped by this "Human" society, even if they >>>>> live in different places. In this step, we will help people all around the >>>>> world helping them to solve starving and other rudimentary injustices that >>>>> still happens out there. After improving live standards around the world >>>>> and curing aging, and even other diseases , and creating politics >>>>> discussed >>>>> with the whole society about taking care of new born people, so that they >>>>> will have a good foundation, after it all, I will focus at overcoming my >>>>> own DNA barriers, allowing me to live in other biospheres, without passing >>>>> through death, and I call this the "Last Form" because the body will >>>>> improve itself conscientiously, and when I achieve it I will become all >>>>> powerful, being able to regenerate, change body form for adaptation, >>>>> replication, move in vacuum, move to different galaxies immediately and >>>>> live in any biosphere, and all that I want to distribute democratically >>>>> and >>>>> always thinking to help God in His mission to love humankind! >>>>> When the language "simple" and end of aging be achieved, I believe >>>>> that the evolution will be exponential, because I believe that working in >>>>> this cause will become a "world passion" and though the hardest part is >>>>> the >>>>> beginning and not dying, if I achieve at least the methodology to stop >>>>> dying by aging, the rest will be more guaranteed, and the society will >>>>> look >>>>> a lot more humanized! >>>>> In this level, reproduction and war will be somewhat prehistoric and >>>>> we will have new born citizens just by thought. I know it seems >>>>> unbelievable, or a joke, but actually we will be more present and we will >>>>> have a greater sense of reality because we will have more senses and we >>>>> will be deeper connected with the universe, or in other words, we will >>>>> absorb and transform matter and energy more efficiently and survive in >>>>> different kind of places just by adapting our bodies consciously and using >>>>> our senses. >>>>> When this "Last Form" thing be available, it will happen that not >>>>> everybody will want it, so they will just live immortally, and enjoy the >>>>> resulting paradise created as part of the plan! >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Felipe Carmona Miquilini >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >> -- >> Felipe Carmona Miquilini >> >> >> > *Artificial General Intelligence List <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* > / AGI / see discussions <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + > participants <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + delivery > options <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> Permalink > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T4958afbafca274a8-Mbd459b16c028a399d7de92dc> > ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T4958afbafca274a8-M59aff9189fdd9ac7a62b66ea Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
