Colin, Your analogies, to fire, flight etc., are rather screwily drawn.
Let's say the goal of manned flight is to lift humans high up in the air and move them to a different point in the world, and then let them down without killing them. This is an empirical test criterion, and one can measure whether it's been done or not via purely functional observations, without needing to know about the mechanisms. The Wright Brothers did it without feathers and flapping wings, and what they did still counts as manned flight. Similarly, let's say (for sake of discussion) that the initial goal of AGI is to make a robot that can get PhDs in every field in a top university, going through exactly the same steps as a human would in order to get these PhDs. Then, we should rate a robot as succeeding at this test, if it can get the PhDs -- without worrying about whether its robo-brain is made of traditional silicon chips running a traditional computational process, or some kind of quantum computing process, or a detailed brain simulation, or whatever. If you want to hypothesize that there is no way to make a robot that will pass this test, using a digital computer brain -- OK, that's a scientific hypothesis, on which you have a different intuition than most AGI researchers. But you are going beyond just positing this sort of hypothesis. Instead, you're claiming that those of us who believe a digital computer brain is enough to achieve human-level intelligent behavior, are making some dumb elementary logic error of conflating the map for the territory. Uh, no. We are just following the hypothesis that one kind of physical system (digital computers) can achieve the same sorts of behavioral functions as another kind of physical system (human brains). This is not some logic error or philosophical error, it's just a scientific hypothesis that you happen to disagree with. It does seem to be the case that digital computers have done a lot of stuff that it was previously thought only human brains could do (play chess, assemble things in factories, categorize documents, and so forth). But we don't have digital computer based AGI yet, or any other kind of AGI, so your hypothesis is scientifically plausible and can't be considered refuted. However, you haven't drawn any specific, convincing connections between the posited trans-computational aspects of the human brain, and actual properties of human thought. Roger Penrose and Selmer Bringsjord have tried to do this, but IMO not very compellingly. Another tricky issue is that all scientific data ever collected, comprises a large finite bit-set. Any finite bit-set can be modeled using a computational model, e.g. a finite-state machine. So, there is no rigorous scientific way to distinguish a computable from a non-computable system. The Church-Turing Thesis can't be scientifically proven, but nor can your opposing view. Even if you turn out to be right that building digital computers is incapable of achieving human-level AGI, but building physical systems emulating brain physics is capable of it --- this STILL will not prove that the universe, including your brain emulation systems, is not computable. There is no scientific way to distinguish a non-computable system, from a computable system whose algorithmic information is much larger than that of your own brain. This is because all scientific data comprises a large finite bit-set. You could never scientifically disprove the hypothesis that these "brain physics" based machines of yours are just computers with larger algorithmic information than our brains, but modeling them explicitly as computers is beyond our capability and beyond the bit-set of total scientific data. -- Ben Goertzel On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: > Manned flight was first achieved in the 18th century. The idea of using > moving parts of some kind took off at the end of the 19th century. I am > not sure why the idea became so popular at that time. But my guess is that > there was something compelling about the possibility of using the smaller > and lighter engines that were just becoming available at that time. > Powered flight became possible because certain advancements in technology > became available at that time. I know that one of the advancements that > made practical automobiles possible and airplanes theoretically possible > was the machining of engine parts. This process could be used so that the > parts of the engine block that had to be strong could be left thick (as > they came out of the casting mold) but other parts could be thinned down, > dramatically increasing the power to weight ratio of the motors. > > Although the experimental method, going out there and trying actual > experiments, was an important aspect of the invention of the modern > airplane, the comparison of 60 years of building simulators to the problem > of developing AGI is as insipid as it was fantastic. > > The fact is that Orville DID use simulation! He created the wind > tunnel. And he conducted an experiment to determine what the attack angle > of the wing should be on the handlebars of his bicycle! He was simulating > what would happen during flight in order to determine how to better design > his airplane even though no one had designed a working airplane at that > time. What I find most amazing about this second simulation is that he > realized that the propeller of his plane should have a curved shape because > he found that the attack angle (the angle of the wing as it moved as it > moved into the airflow) was most efficient at different angles at different > speeds and since the parts of the propeller at different distances from the > center were turning at different speeds as it was rotated this implied that > the attack angle of the propeller should be different at different > distances from the center. This made his airplane design much more > efficient. > > Of course the most significant simulations that the Wrights used were the > gliders that they launched down the hills or sand dunes at Kill Devil Hills. > > Powered flight became possible when enough advances in technology made it > possible. The Wright Brothers not only were able to use this technology > they also invented some of it, and significantly, they used simulations to > make critical design decisions. > > Your metaphor is nonsense. > Jim Bromer > On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Colin Geoffrey Hales < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> At least, if I have anything to do with it....**** >> >> ** ** >> >> >> http://www.theconversation.edu.au/the-modern-phlogiston-why-thinking-machines-dont-need-computers-7881 >> **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Cheers**** >> >> Colin**** >> >> ** ** >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10561250-164650b2> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-11ac2389> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
