Jim: The idea is that we are arguing is that computers have a potential to 'represent' an astounding variety of things and relations.
You seem quite incapable of distinguishing between “computers” and “programs” *Computers* currently have billions of apps and programs - potentially if not actually indeed representing all things. Programs – algorithmic programs – are just complex recipes with an extremely limited stock of a few ingredients, and zero new elements. You seem equally incapable of understanding the problem of AGI, which can be expressed as the incapacity of programs to incorporate any new elements. Patterns- algorithms – formulae – recipes – all only apply to a limited stock of elements. But in your wild imagination they are already all-knowing and all-encompassing and have already solved the problem of AGI. You are confusing the recipe with the chef - AGI is about creating a chef that can create any dish, and mix any new elements into dishes – – unlike algorithms and patterns which self-evidently have only a very limited set of elements – and even then run into problems of combinatorial complexity – the purely narrow AI problem that obsesses you. Examples, specifics, Jim, and not just waffle – of these all-growing, all-new-element-producing patterns, and these all-knowing, all-encompassing algorithms. You guys are really maintaining absolute nonsense – and you can’t produce a single example to back up your arguments. From: Jim Bromer Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 8:28 AM To: AGI Subject: Re: [agi] Randomness: Mathematics as Perceptual Bias I guess Mike was saying that the variety of patterns that he provided a link to were, "unlike natural evolution, in which new elements, like eyes, limbs, opposable thumbs, voiceboxes, etc emerge..." But again, he is declaring that complex arrangements of cells are "elements" so even if I misunderstood how he was using the references to the images of patterns, I am still left with sense that he is not basing his argument on the idea that there are an infinite number of 'elements' but on the idea that an infinite number of complexes can emerge. No one is saying that a computer can truly represent an infinite variety of anything, no more than we are we saying that a single computer can know everything. No human being knows everything that human beings have ever known. The idea is that we are arguing is that computers have a potential to 'represent' an astounding variety of things and relations. Jim Bromer On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:13 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> wrote: A specific pattern – Mandelbrot, Fourier transform, cellular automaton no. 30 etc.. specific. Examples are specific, Aaron, not general. And the “pattern of neuronal firings in your brain” is a fictional product of your imagination. Specifics. Evidence. e.g. https://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1340&bih=690&q=patterns&oq=patterns&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1679.2746.0.3037.8.7.0.1.1.0.159.516.5j2.7.0...0.0...1ac.1.hHfKyrSHq4M And here are “evolving patterns”, except that they don’t truly evolve with new elements – they aren’t truly “emergent” Mike's idea of a "patchwork" is just a fictional product of his imagination, if that is the attitude that he wants to take. And Mike's reference of the patterns in the images he provides the links to are truly formed from non changing elements of pixels of computer imagery. If his argument can be exemplified by the seemingly infinite variety of different patterns that can be found by searching on Google then that proves that the unchanging elements of pixlation can indeed represent the variety of different kinds of patterns that Mike is talking about. This seems like a contradiction of his basic argument since the question seems to hinge on whether computers can potentially -represent- a massive variety of patterns. Jim Bromer AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
