About OpenCog -- it's still a research-stage system and doesn't do useful things with enough robustness & generality to be useful for application developers via accessing a nice API.... So even if there were a nice API, that still wouldn't be helpful to application developers -- yet. The system will need to work better for that to be the case... Right now to apply OpenCog to something really requires a lot of customization, so you gotta understand at least the relevant aspects of the system pretty deeply at the code and conceptual level
OTOH, it *could* be a good idea to design an application developer friendly API for OpenCog now, even though the functionality isn't robust/reliable enough yet for the system to be used in a "plug n play" manner by application developers.... Such an API could help attract developers to work on enabling the API functions work better ;) So I generally agree with your suggestion, the issue is just that for AGI (as opposed to for, say, machine learning or text parsing) it's a lot of work to get to the point where the core "simple" (relatively speaking) functionality is robust enough for application use... Still you've got me thinking what a good API would look like, balancing generality with simplicity.... Maybe I'll throw some suggestions out in this regard, sometime in the next N hours, days or weeks ;) ben On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:46 PM, Chris Nolan <[email protected]>wrote: > I wonder if the argument over open source vs proprietary is a little too > simple. Instead the model should be more like Lucene/Solr is for > Search/Information retrieval where there is a core open sourcearchitecture > but much of the algorithms and processing extending that > architecture is done by proprietary companies. There's a relationship then > between open source and proprietary that is mutually beneficial. When it > makes sense to push expansions from companies back to core then it can be > done so, to the benefit of the larger community. The open sourcecommunity can > focus on maintaining and expanding the core architecture and > functionality, while companies can still make money off of applications > that they develop. > > It seems like for AGI-ish work, it'd be beneficial to have that type model > where there's very simple APIs that can be used by individuals for specific > applications, like game-AI or NLP. The core APIs can then be extended for > proprietary applications, or if it maks sense then those extensions can be > pushed back to the core open source community. > > Not trying to criticize OpenCog. I've read most of the first draft of BBMand > largely > agree with the overall ideas. It's just so hard to use and get introduced > to. There's no straightforward API that others can use to build > applications and easily get into the system. > > -Chris > > > > On Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:13 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hey Azn, > > Of course I would take US$100M or even US$20M personally, even if it > required me to work for the company that paid the $$ for 3 years or > whatever [a common sort of requirement] ... > > However, I don't currently have the sort of company that a Google or > Facebook would want to buy.... Deep Mind had ~60 machine learning > programmer/scientists, colocated, with fancy pedigrees -- and they put a > lot of work into making working demos that would impress folks like Google > execs (e.g. video game playing by reinforcement learning & computer vision, > which is not fundamentally hard but requires lots and lots of fiddling to > be surely).... And they worked up to that acquisition via taking $$ from > Silicon Valley insiders (Peter Thiel's Founders Fund) and cultivating > associated relationships.. > > Vicarious Systems has a similar, though far smaller team, and also had > Founders Fund $$; and also put a lot of work into making the right kind of > working demo .. in their case solving the CAPTCHA problem.... Again, > solving CAPTCHA is not incredibly hard given a deep learning computer > vision system, but it's a long road of fiddling and tweaking given current > technology... > > Neither company had/has a great near-term biz model, but both were well > primed for tech biz acquisitions > > Point is, grooming a company for potential acquisition or investment by > Silicon Valley types is a specific quest that takes time and special > effort. It's not a bad path to take. But it's not the case that these > companies just want to buy any high-quality AI team (and I emphasize the > team because IMNSHO Deep Mind was mainly an acqui-hire); they tend to work > thru their own social networks; etc. > > Since I don't have a company of the sort these firms like to buy, my > opportunity regarding such firms would be to get one of them to make a job > for me, and a suitable fraction of my OpenCog colleagues, working on > OpenCog type AGI software. Most of these companies like proprietary code > so they would probably want us to make a proprietary fork of OpenCog and > integrate with their own internal software systems. While there would be > no multimillion dollar hiring bonus, there would be the option for a large > personal $$ payout if we made our software do something of value to that > firm a few years down the road.... And of course there would be the option > to convince that big company to progressively put more and more $$ into > said proprietary OpenCog fork... > > If I didn't have other interesting options available that might be an > appealing path for me and some of my colleagues. It's not impossible I > would take that route. Yet I tend to be a free spirit; I like to be able > to work from home and to travel freely, and to talk freely about what I > do.... And I have a strong intuition that it's better to make AGI in the > open source way, drawing insight from a wide group of folks around the > world with various backgrounds... > > If my work with Aidyia Limited, a HK hedge fund I've co-founded, goes > well, then I can make enough $$ myself to fund OpenCog at a level that will > eliminate the need for megacorporate sponsorship. But of course financial > prediction is risky even with machine learning algorithms on your side, and > work on that application takes time that could be spent on AGI... > > And so it goes in early 2014... > > ;) > Ben > > > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Azn A <[email protected]> wrote: > > Interesting, but how is selling some of your low level work forcing you > into a megacorporation? You can probably walk away once the deal is done > right? With what, $100 million? You say you would only need $60 million to > get an AGI.. > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 10:38 PM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Eventually there will be an AGI that is far beyond human control. But > before that, there will be a gradual path of increasing AGI, when the > relationship btw humans and AGIs will be more complicated. Having this > intermediate-stage AGI guided primarily via corporate motives of short-term > profits, seems unwise to me... > > Also, it seems better if all the smart minds in the world can collaborate > on creating AGI, not just the few who happen to have been hired by some > particular company > > Joel Pitt and I made these arguments in more detail at > > http://jetpress.org/v22/goertzel-pitt.htm > > Linux demonstrates that OSS can go as far and fast as in-house projects > at big companies (or more so), if things fall into place right... > > -- Ben > > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Azn A <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ben Goertzel wrote: > > I would prefer to make AGI open source, not within a megacorporation.. > > > Why? It's like not the AGI can be controlled or whatever... > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Alan Grimes <[email protected]>wrote: > > Ben Goertzel wrote: > > I would prefer to make AGI open source, not within a megacorporation... > > Got detailed build instructions for Linux? I really need to know what > the status of your project is right now and my only usable computer is a > linux machine. > > -- > IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel. > > Powers are not rights. > > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10514698-9a8cda1e > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-deec6279> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com/> > > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > http://goertzel.org > > "In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane". -- Capt. > James T. Kirk > > "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery / None but ourselves can free our > minds" -- Robert Nesta Marley > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10514698-9a8cda1e> | > Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com/> > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-deec6279> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com/> > > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > http://goertzel.org > > "In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane". -- Capt. > James T. Kirk > > "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery / None but ourselves can free our > minds" -- Robert Nesta Marley > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/20347893-f72b365c> | > Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com/> > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-deec6279> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org "In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane". -- Capt. James T. Kirk "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery / None but ourselves can free our minds" -- Robert Nesta Marley ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
