Brad,
Go back and look at Richard's e-mail again. His statement that "Keeping
lists of 'things not known' is wildly, outrageously impossible, for any
system" *WAS* supported by a brief but very clear "evidence-based" *and*
"well-reasoned" argument that should have made it's truth *very* obvious to
someone with sufficient background.
Just because you don't understand why something is true doesn't change
it from a fact to an opinion. Richard is generally very good in clearly and
accurately distinguishing between what is a generally-accepted fact and what
is his guestimate or opinion is his e-mails.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Paulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <agi@v2.listbox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] How do we know we don't know?
Richard,
Someone who can throw comments like "Isn't this a bit of a no-brainer?"
and "Keeping lists of 'things not known' is wildly, outrageously
impossible, for any system!" at people should expect a little bit of
annoyance in return. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.
Your responses to my initial post so far have been devoid of any real
substantive evidence or argument for the opinions you have expressed
therein. Your initial reply correctly identified an additional mechanism
that two other list members had previously reported (that surface features
could raise the "feeling of not knowing" without triggering an exhaustive
memory search). As I pointed out in my response to them, this observation
was "a good catch" but did not, in any way, show my ideas to be
"no-brainers" or "wildly, outrageously impossible." In that reply, I
posted a new example query that contained only common American English
words and was syntactically valid.
If you want to present an evidence-based or well-reasoned argument why you
believe my ideas are meritless, then let's have it. Pejorative
adjectives, ad hominem attacks and baseless opinions don't impress me
much.
As to your cheerleader, she's just made my kill-list. The only thing
worse than someone who slings unsupported opinions around like they're
facts, is someone who slings someone else's unsupported opinions around
like they're facts.
Who is Mark Waser?
Cheers,
Brad
Richard Loosemore wrote:
Brad Paulsen wrote:
Valentina,
Well, the "LOL" is on you.
Richard failed to add anything new to the two previous responses that
each posited linguistic surface feature analysis as being responsible
for generate the "feeling of not knowing" with that *particular* (and,
admittedly poorly-chosen) example query. This mechanism will, however,
apply to only a very tiny number of cases.
In response to those first two replies (not including Richard's), I
apologized for the sloppy example and offered a new one. Please read
the entire thread and the new example. I think you'll find Richard's
and your explanation will fail to address how the new example might
generate the "feeling of not knowing."
Brad,
Isn't this response, as well as the previous response directed at me,
just a little more "annoyed-sounding" than it needs to be?
Both Valentina and I (and now Mark Waser also) have simply focused on the
fact that it is relatively trivial to build mechanisms that monitor the
rate at which the system is progressing in its attempt to do a
recognition operation, and then call it as a "not known" if the progress
rate is below a certain threshold.
In particular, you did suggest the idea of a system keeping lists of
things it did not know, and surely it is not inappropriate to give a
good-naturedly humorous response to that one?
So far, I don't see any of us making a substantial misunderstanding of
your question, nor anyone being deliberately rude to you.
Richard Loosemore
Valentina Poletti wrote:
lol.. well said richard.
the stimuli simply invokes no signiticant response and thus our brain
concludes that we 'don't know'. that's why it takes no effort to
realize it. agi algorithms should be built in a similar way, rather
than searching.
Isn't this a bit of a no-brainer? Why would the human brain need
to
keep lists of things it did not know, when it can simply break the
word down into components, then have mechanisms that watch for the
rate at which candidate lexical items become activated .... when
this mechanism notices that the rate of activation is well below
the usual threshold, it is a fairly simple thing for it to announce
that the item is not known.
Keeping lists of "things not known" is wildly, outrageously
impossible, for any system! Would we really expect that the word
"ikrwfheuigjsjboweonwjebgowinwkjbcewijcniwecwoicmuwbpiwjdncwjkdncowk-
owejwenowuycgxnjwiiweudnpwieudnwheudxiweidhuxehwuixwefgyjsdhxeiowudx-
hwieuhyxweipudxhnweduiweodiuweydnxiweudhcnhweduweiducyenwhuwiepixuwe-
dpiuwezpiweudnzpwieumzweuipweiuzmwepoidumw" is represented
somewhere
as a "word that I do not know"? :-)
I note that even in the simplest word-recognition neural nets that
I
built and studied in the 1990s, activation of a nonword proceeded
in
a very different way than activation of a word: it would have been
easy to build something to trigger a "this is a nonword" neuron.
Is there some type of AI formalism where nonword recognition would
be problematic?
Richard Loosemore
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