Hi Terren,
Obviously you need to complicated your original statement "I believe that ethics is *entirely* driven by what is best evolutionarily..." in such a way that we don't derive ethics from parasites.
Saying that ethics is entirely driven by evolution is NOT the same as saying that evolution always results in ethics. Ethics is computationally/cognitively expensive to successfully implement (because a stupid implementation gets exploited to death). There are many evolutionary niches that won't support that expense and the successful entities in those niches won't be ethical. Parasites are a prototypical/archetypal example of such a niche since they tend to degeneratively streamlined to the point of being stripped down to virtually nothing except that which is necessary for their parasitism. Effectively, they are single goal entities -- the single most dangerous type of entity possible.
You did that by invoking social behavior - parasites are not social beings
I claim that ethics is nothing *but* social behavior.
So from there you need to identify how evolution operates in social groups in such a way that you can derive ethics.
OK. How about this . . . . Ethics is that behavior that, when shown by you, makes me believe that I should facilitate your survival. Obviously, it is then to your (evolutionary) benefit to behave ethically.
As Matt alluded to before, would you agree that ethics is the result of group selection? In other words, that human collectives with certain taboos make the group as a whole more likely to persist?
Matt is decades out of date and needs to catch up on his reading.Ethics is *NOT* the result of group selection. The *ethical evaluation of a given action* is a meme and driven by the same social/group forces as any other meme. Rational memes when adopted by a group can enhance group survival but . . . . there are also mechanisms by which seemingly irrational memes can also enhance survival indirectly in *exactly* the same fashion as the "seemingly irrational" tail displays of peacocks facilitates their group survival by identifying the fittest individuals. Note that it all depends upon circumstances . . . .
Ethics is first and foremost what society wants you to do. But, society can't be too pushy in it's demands or individuals will defect and society will break down. So, ethics turns into a matter of determining what is the behavior that is best for society (and thus the individual) without unduly burdening the individual (which would promote defection, cheating, etc.). This behavior clearly differs based upon circumstances but, equally clearly, should be able to be derived from a reasonably small set of rules that *will* be context dependent. Marc Hauser has done a lot of research and human morality seems to be designed exactly that way (in terms of how it varies across societies as if it is based upon fairly simple rules with a small number of variables/variable settings. I highly recommend his writings (and being familiar with them is pretty much a necessity if you want to have a decent advanced/current scientific discussion of ethics and morals).
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terren Suydam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:54 PMSubject: Re: AGI goals (was Re: Information theoretic approaches to AGI (was Re: [agi] The Necessity of Embodiment))
Hi Mark,Obviously you need to complicated your original statement "I believe that ethics is *entirely* driven by what is best evolutionarily..." in such a way that we don't derive ethics from parasites. You did that by invoking social behavior - parasites are not social beings.So from there you need to identify how evolution operates in social groups in such a way that you can derive ethics. As Matt alluded to before, would you agree that ethics is the result of group selection? In other words, that human collectives with certain taboos make the group as a whole more likely to persist?Terren --- On Thu, 8/28/08, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:From: Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: AGI goals (was Re: Information theoretic approaches to AGI (was Re: [agi] The Necessity of Embodiment))To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 9:21 PM Parasites are very successful at surviving but they don't have other goals. Try being parasitic *and* succeeding at goals other than survival. I think you'll find that your parasitic ways will rapidly get in the way of your other goals the second that you need help (or even non-interference) from others.----- Original Message ----- From: "Terren Suydam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: AGI goals (was Re: Information theoretic approaches to AGI (was Re: [agi] The Necessity of Embodiment)) > > --- On Thu, 8/28/08, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Actually, I *do* define good and ethics not only in >> evolutionary terms but >> as being driven by evolution. Unlike most people, I >> believe that ethics is >> *entirely* driven by what is best evolutionarily while not >> believing at all >> in "red in tooth and claw". I can give you a >> reading list that shows that >> the latter view is horribly outdated among people who keep >> up with the >> research rather than just rehashing tired old ideas. > > I think it's a stretch to derive ethical ideas from what you refer to as > "best evolutionarily". Parasites are pretty freaking successful, from an > evolutionary point of view, but nobody would say parasitism is ethical. > > Terren > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
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