Ed / Richard, It seems to me that Richard's propsal is in large part a modernization of Peirce's metaphysical analysis of awareness.
Peirce introduced foundational metaphysical categories of First, Second and Third ... where First is defined as raw unanalyzable awareness/being ... http://www.helsinki.fi/science/commens/terms/firstness.html To me, Richard's analysis sounds a lot like Peirce's statement that consciousness is First... And Ed's refutation sounds like a rejection of First as a meaningful category, and an attempt to redirect the conversation to the level of Third... -- Ben G On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Richard Loosemore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Ed Porter wrote: > >> Richard, >> >> You have provided no basis for your argument that I have misunderstood >> your paper and the literature upon which it is based. >> >> [snip] >> >> My position is that we can actually describe a fairly large number of >> characteristics of our subjective experience consciousness that most other >> intelligent people agree with. Although we cannot know that others >> experience the color red exactly the same way we do, we can determine that >> there are multiple shared describable characteristics that most people claim >> to have with regard to their subjective experiences of the color red. >> > > This is what I meant when I said that you had completely misunderstood both > my paper and the background literature: the statement in the above > paragraph could only be written by a person who does not understand the > distinction between the "Hard Problem" of consciousness (this being David > Chalmers' term for it) and the "Easy" problems. > > The precise definition of "qualia", which everyone agrees on, and which you > are flatly contradicting here, is that these things do not involve anything > that can be compared across individuals. > > Since this an utterly fundamental concept, if you do not get this then it > is almost impossible to discuss the topic. > > Matt just tried to explain it to you. You did not get it even then. > > > > > Richard Loosemore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
