> -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Richfield [mailto:steve.richfi...@gmail.com] > John, > > Hmmm, I though that with your EE background, that the 12db/octave would > bring back old sophomore-level course work. OK, so you were sick that day. > I'll try to fill in the blanks here...
Thanks man. Appreciate it. What little EE training I did undergo was brief and painful :) > On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John G. Rose <johnr...@polyplexic.com> > wrote: > > > Of course, there is the big question of just what it is that is being > > "attenuated" in the bowels of an intelligent system. Usually, it is > > computational delays making sharp frequency-limited attenuation at their > > response speeds. > > > > Every gamer is well aware of the oscillations that long "ping times" can > > introduce in people's (and intelligent bot's) behavior. Again, this is > basically > > the same 12db/octave phenomenon. > > > OK, excuse my ignorance on this - a design issue in distributed intelligence > is how to split up "things" amongst the agents. I see it as a hierarchy of > virtual networks, with the lowest level being the substrate like IP sockets > or something else but most commonly TCP/UDP. > > The protocols above that need to break up the work, and the knowledge > distribution, so the 12db/octave phenomenon must apply there too. > > RC low-pass circuits exhibit 6db/octave rolloff and 90 degree phase shifts. > 12db/octave corresponds to a 180 degree phase shift. More than 180 > degrees and you are into positive feedback. At 24db/octave, you are at > maximum positive feedback, which makes great oscillators. > > The 12 db/octave limit applies to entire loops of components, and not to the > individual components. This means that you can put a lot of 1db/octave > components together in a big loop and get into trouble. This is commonly > encountered in complex analog filter circuits that incorporate 2 or more op- > amps in a single feedback loop. Op amps are commonly "compensated" to > have 6db/octave rolloff. Put 2 of them together and you right at the precipice > of 12db/octave. Add some passive components that have their own rolloffs, > and you are over the edge of stability, and the circuit sits there and oscillates > on its own. The usual cure is to replace one of the op-amps with an > uncompensated op-amp with ~0db/octave rolloff, until it gets to its > maximum frequency, whereupon it has an astronomical rolloff. However, > that astronomical rolloff works BECAUSE the loop gain at that frequency is > less than 1, so the circuit cannot self-regenerate and oscillate at that > frequency. > > Considering the above and the complexity of neural circuits, it would seem > that neural circuits would have to have absolutely flat responses and some > central rolloff mechanism, maybe one of the ~200 different types of > neurons, or alternatively, would have to be able to custom-tailor their > responses to work in concert to roll off at a reasonable rate. A third > alternative is discussed below, where you let them go unstable, and actually > utilize the instability to achieve some incredible results. > > I assume any intelligence processing engine must include a harmonic > mathematical component > > I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Perhaps you have > discovered the recipe for the secret sauce? Uhm, no I was merely asking your opinion if the 12db/octave phenomena applies to a non-EE based intelligence system. If it could be lifted off of its EE nativeness and applied to ANY network since there are latencies in ALL networks. BUT it sounds as if it is heavily analog circuit based, though there may be some *analogue in an informational network. And this would be represented under a different technical name or formula most likely. > > since ALL things are basically network, especially > intelligence. > > Most of the things we call "networks" really just pass information along and > do NOT have feedback mechanisms. Power control is an interesting > exception, but most of those guys are unable to even carry on an intelligent > conversation about the subject. No wonder the power networks have > problems. Steve - I actually did work in nuclear power engineering many years ago and remember the Neanderthals involved in that situation believe it or not. But I will say they strongly emphasized practicality and safety verses theoretics and academics. And especially trial and error was something to be frowned upon ... for obvious reasons. IOW, do not rock the boat since there are real reasons for them being that way! > > This might be an overly aggressive assumption but it seems from observance > that intelligence/consciousness exhibits some sort of harmonic property, or > levels. > > You apparently grok something about harmonics that I don't (yet) grok. > Please enlighten me. > I was wondering if YOU could envision a harmonic correlation between certain electrical circuit phenomenon and intelligence. I've just suspected that there are harmonic properties in intelligence/consciousness. IOW there are relatively discreet groupings of similar intelligences (human, animal, insect) but this is conjecture on my part. Also within human intelligence there seems to be harmonic correlations... If there was a natural network based harmonic optimization or inherent structure that intelligence would be forced to operate upon, or be guided by, that would be interesting. If that could be shown mathematically with inherent applied graph or network theory... or even electronically with neurons and circuit theory. > Are you familiar with regenerative receiver operation where operation is on > the knife-edge of instability, or super-regenerative receiver operation, > wherein an intentionally UNstable circuit is operated to achieve phenomenal > gain and specifically narrow bandwidth? These were common designs back in > the early vacuum tube era, when active components cost a day's wages. > Given all of the observed frequency components coming from neural circuits, > perhaps neurons do something similar to actually USE instability to their > benefit?! Is this related to your harmonic thoughts? > Yes somewhat familiar, remember reading some old electronic books. Neurons might have evolved to take advantage of some of these effects. Or they would have to. But neuron characteristics are so different the effects would have to be manifested in different ways electronically and chemically with complex doping and lots of chemically based operating mechanisms. Still though the brain is an electro-thermo-chemical based intelligence system. It is organically hosting an intelligence engine in the real world where the natural structure of information has to be processed. There are basic properties of networks in this natural world verses a theoretic space or other virtual and non-organic spaces. So the brain will optimize over natural data structure and this may have a harmonic or some other familiar component which we could get at by study of the structure of natural information and knowledge. John ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
