On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 03:45 +0100, Mike Tintner wrote:
Let's crystallise the problem - all the unsolved problems of AGI -
visual
object recognition, conceptualisation, analogy, metaphor, creativity,
language understanding and generation - are problems where you're
dealing
with freeform, irregular patchwork objects - objects which clearly do not
fit any *patterns* - the raison d'etre of maths .
To focus that , these objects do not have common parts in more or less
precisely repeating structures - i.e. fit patterns.
A cartoon and a photo of the same face may have no parts or structure in
common.
Ditto different versions of the Google logo. Zero common parts or
structure
Ditto "cloud" and "mushroom" - no common parts, or common structure.
Yet the mind amazingly can see likenesses between all these things.
Just about all the natural objects in the world , with some obvious
exceptions, do not fit common patterns - they do not have the same parts
in
precisely the same places/structures. They may have common loose
"organizations" of parts - e.g. mouths, eyes, noses, lips - but they are
not precisely patterned.
So you must explain how a mathematical approach, wh. is all about
recognizing patterns, can apply to objects wh. do not fit patterns.
You won't be able to - because if you could bring yourselves to look at
the
real world or any depictions of it other than geometric, (metacognitively
speaking),you would see for yourself that these objects don't have
precise
patterns.
It's obvious also that when the mind likens a cloud to a mushroom, it
cannot
be using any math. techniques.
.. but those things do have patterns.. A mushroom (A) is like a cloud
mushroom (B).
if ( (input_source_A == An_image) AND ( input_source_B == An_image ))
One pattern is that they both came from an image source, and I just used
maths + logic to prove it.
But we have to understand how the mind does do that - because it's fairly
clearly the same technique the mind also uses to conceptualise even more
vastly different forms such as those of "chair," "tree", "dog," "cat."
And that technique - like concepts themselves - is at the heart of AGI.
And you can sit down and analyse the problem visually, physically and see
also pretty obviously that if the mind can liken such physically
different
objects as cloud and mushroom, then it HAS to do that with something like
a
fluid schema. There's broadly no other way but to fluidly squash the
objects
to match each other (there could certainly be different techniques of
achieving that - but the broad principles are fairly self evident).
Cloud
and mushroom certainly don't match formulaically, mathematically. Neither
do
those different versions of a tune. Or the different faces of Madonna.
But what we've got here is people who don't in the final analysis give a
damn about how to solve AGI - if it's a choice between doing maths and
failing, and having some kind of "artistic" solution to AGI that actually
works, most people here will happily fail forever. Mathematical AI has
indeed consistently failed at AGI. You have to realise, mathematicians
have
a certain kind of madness. Artists don't go around saying God is an
artist,
or everything is art. Only mathematicians have that compulsion to reduce
everything to maths, when the overwhelming majority of representations
are
clearly not mathematical - or claim that the obviously irregular abstract
arts (think Pollock) are mathematical. You're in good company - Wolfram,
a
brilliant fellow, thinks his patterns constitute a new kind of science,
when
the vast majority of scientists can see they only constitute a new kind
of
pattern, and do not apply to the real world.
Look again - the brain is primarily a patchwork adapted to a patchwork,
very extensively unpatterned world - incl. the internet itself - adapted
primarily not to neat, patterned networks, but to tangled, patchwork,
non-mathematical webs. See fotos.
The outrageous one here is not me.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael Swan" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 2:19 AM
To: "agi" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music
> Hi,
>
> Sometimes outrageous comments are a catalyst for better ideas.
>
> On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 01:48 +0200, Jan Klauck wrote:
>> Mike Tintner trolled
>>
>> > And maths will handle the examples given :
>> >
>> > same tunes - different scales, different instruments
>> > same face - cartoon, photo
>> > same logo - different parts [buildings/ fruits/ human figures]
>>
>> Unfortunately I forgot. The answer is somewhere down there:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenvalue,_eigenvector_and_eigenspace
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_fitting
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_identification
>>
> No-one has successfully integrated these concepts into a working AGI,
> despite numerous attempts. Even though these concept feel general, when
> implemented, only narrow or "affected by combinatorial explosion" have
> succeeded.
>
>> > revealing them to be the same - how exactly?
>>
>> Why should anybody explain that mystery to you? You are not an
>> accepted member of the Grand Lodge of AGI Masons or its affiliates.
>>
>> > Or you could take two arseholes - same kind of object, but
>> > radically
>> > different configurations - maths will show them to belong to the
>> > same
>> > category, how?
>>
>> How will you do it? By licking them?
>
> Personal attacks only weaken your arguments.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> agi
>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> agi
> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> Modify Your Subscription:
> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
-------------------------------------------
agi
Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
-------------------------------------------
agi
Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription:
https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
