---------------------------------------- > From: mtr...@web.de > To: amforth-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 21:04:10 +0200 > Subject: Re: [Amforth] AMFORTH 5.8 on Uno R3 > > Steve, > > I like it to get the un-modified first frustration > from people absolutely new to amforth. Really. My > first reaction to your mail was get lost (well, > something less polite in fact). >
You should be proud. At least I have learn much from the source of Amforth. And I have used amforth too. In my journey to understanding forth Amforth has been one of the cleanest implementation. > Now I think about what went wrong. Amforth is nothing > I am ashamed of. That may surprise you, but it definitely > is. So when people cry out their frustrations, there > should be a reason for it. > Problem with me is that I'm past newbie. I'm using forth productively in my master's thesis as implementing engine to run it. I don't know reason. Is it incomplete docs TL;DR docs, complex compilation and flashing process. I have been many times on WTF? situation with AVRs and Amforth. And then I have solved them through reading source, studying forth concepts on topic and with datasheet. I started AVRs before they were called arduinos so that part also creates blind spots for me. However I know one medicine. starting_amforth.pdf First getting, configuring and compiling amforth. Both on windows and Linux Configuring is hard task. Reading lst, datasheet and googling are part of my work-flow. I once reported something about AtMega128 and its quirks for example. Structured layout of forth files and what words and what they do. Explained examples. Then there is need for documenting how the system really works. Also recipes from web page belong to this book. FAQ or newbie tutorial needs to written. For example 4th has nice tutorial, but it ends quite early. "How do I make funny data structures? how to use creative way interpreter?" Last is reference with links to examples. This is huge task. Some data can be taken from website. It is good place. I have occasionally checked how some stuff is done in Amforth and then used same ideas elsewhere. I could try to write some stuff. But in my future there are exams, home works etc. And my English is good enough to bargain a beer but someone should proofread what I write. And I'm happy if people contribute. Is there git repo which could be forked and worked with such documentation. Also there is need for some human experiments. Take one audio recorder and total newbie. Teach how to use Amforth. And after led blinker, hello world and washing machine, listen the record. What are the questions. That is the key part which starting_amforth.pdf needs to answer. Documentation is written by devs, competent users and sometimes marketing people. That makes huge blind area of all the good stupid questions. > I admit, the past few releases had a strong focus > on the code, not the documentation. Sorry. I haven't tested it I have been just looking the development and waiting it to mature. I blame my thesis. > > So lets do the work step by step. Rome wasn't built > in a day as well. Funny. Rome wasn't build over night. Maybe they used Finns in night shift. :) Anyway here is one road which would lead there. > > I do hope, that the new linux user guide at > http://amforth.sourceforge.net/UG/linux.html > finds some mercy in your eyes. > > Matthias > > Am Montag, den 13.04.2015, 13:39 -0400 schrieb gp2: >> Hello, >> >> As a new user of Amforth, I just wanted to give some feedback on trying >> to implement 5.8 on an Arduino Uno R3 board. >> >> I had quite a bit of difficulty and it took research over a couple of >> days to get FORTH running. Here are some of the issues (and missteps on >> my part) in hopes that they will be helpful. >> >> I run Puppy Linux normally, but can dual boot into Win 7 if need be. >> >> I started out trying to download the giant Atmel IDE -- but since it >> also took Microsoft .NET 4, it just didn't seem possible to run in Wine >> (as suggested in AMFORTH docs). >> >> So switched to WIN7. Download of all components was very long, and being >> unfamiliar with it, difficult to follow the AMFORTH instructions (which >> seem outdated ) In particular lots of directory references seem to have >> changed. >> >> The .hex and .eep binaries I produced finally, after trying to guess at >> what needed to be the directory structure, and flags, serial baud rate, >> and Mhz parameters (16 for UNO?), etc. just didn't work, and I had no >> clues for how to correct them. Those should be provided. At least some release had them in some appl dir. >> >> Template script comments like "Should be obvious" for baud rate don't >> help! No it's not obvious -- a newcomer isn't aware that there is a >> system default baud rate at all, or what that rate is. >> >> After a day of failure, by accident (not in AMFORTH documentation) I >> found the directory on Github Amforth that included the ATMEL assembler URL? >> and necessary files and directories. This would have saved a whole day >> of frustrating work. And there were updated instructions for intsalling >> AMFORTH. Eureka! >> >> So, following those instructions, I created a directory "my" exactly as >> directed, and tried to make the test template as directed. Immediate >> compiler error. There are several "Words" directories scattered about, >> and the template script couldn't find some of the "Word" directories for >> includes. >> >> After I figured that out, I basically copied and pasted the contents of >> the unfound directories into the /Words the script could find, and then >> was able to compile. >> >> I know that was sloppy practice, and it seems like you probably have a >> better method in mind. But up to this point I'd had no success with any >> instructions for implementing AMFORTH and just wanted to see if I could >> possibly get a workable .hex and .eep. >> >> I won't go into the problems I had with avrdude trying to use two UNO's >> -- one as a programmer for the other per Craig Lindley's article. >> Suffice it to say I sent for and received a programmer from Ebay that >> worked (after rewiring the plug), and was able to burn the board with >> the new code. >> >> Unfortunately, I fell victim to the DE hfuse problem on my Uno board, >> but luckily found the discussion last month that said the hfuse needed >> to be D9 for AMFORTH. >> >> After solving some terminal setup issues, I was finally rewarded with >> the AMFORTH prompt, and am happy! I'm using Minicom in Linux (have >> alsoused Putty for Linux) >> >> I do have some questions, however: >> >> 1.) How do I upload .frt library files? amforth-shell would be nice tool and #include is the word. It's source has documentation how to use it. Requires python. >> >> 2.) Do the comments in those take up memory space? Not with amforth-shell as they aren't even send to MCU and in MCU they are dropped. so no. Comment as much as you wish. It doesn't eat your flash. >> >> 3.) Where is the erase function for practice code, or do I have to >> re-flash a new version of AMFORTH every time to get rid of old code? marker.frt marker foo and when you execute foo everything after foo is gone. >> >> I've been going through my old copy of Leo Brody's book again -- last >> time I programmed in FORTH was on a TRS-80 Model 1 clone that I built, >> called an LNW-80! >> >> Thanks for making this FORTH available for the Arduino. >> >> ps. I'd be happy to help out with documentation if needed. >> >> --Steve Best regards, Hannu Vuolasaho ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ BPM Camp - Free Virtual Workshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT Develop your own process in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard Learn Process modeling best practices with Bonita BPM through live exercises http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_ source=Sourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VA_SF _______________________________________________ Amforth-devel mailing list for http://amforth.sf.net/ Amforth-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
