I'll try to be brief because I'm at work, but if you need to talk about this
more or you need me to explain better something I
said, you can lways do it by PM.
On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 05:53:36PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote:
> After a power shortage of 24 hours, let me make something clear:
> I never said "aMSN is going to use my thing !", nor did I say we
> shouldn't let the user choose, I said I wouldn''t like another pop-up
> but I didn't demand this. I'm not a dictator. You say I'm not in for
> compromises ... well, I just code what I like ... as most ppl here
> didn't say "I'd never want the inline spaces", I started doing
> something, noone started on the cards, after there are cards, you can
> have the user choose. Even if you come up with a third solution, let
> it be. If everyone is sure my idea is bad and expresses it that way,
> I'll remove everything I committed and make a plugin for myself alone.
> You asked why I started doing it in the drawContact proc ... well,
> because this was my idea and nobody stated clearly this shouldn't be
> done inside that proc. It seemed easier to me to do it there and it
> was just where I started. All things drawed related to contacts are
> in that same proc ... ok, always reading that code I put in could
> generate too much cpu-wotrk for nothing you think. Changing it is
> simple.
>
first, we're not here to make a war, there has been enough flame wars in the
past and we all know how it can be bad to start a
new one here. I didn't say you're a dictator, just saying that you leave no
place for compromise, you get an idea about
something 'usable' and you think it's the only best solution possible. About
you just code what you like, I agree and that's
perfectly normal, I can't tell you to code something you don't even want! so
there shouldn't be any regret in coding it your
way and I know that if I wanted it to be ccards I would have coded the ccards
myself too and that's probably what I'm going to
do once I get the time for it. Your idea is not bad, and I never said it is
bad, I always said it's a good idea and I'm sure
many people will like it, but :
1 - I don't really like it
2 - it is far better in usability terms, but worse in 'expectations' terms
3 - from a point of view of a WLM user, a ccard is far more usable than that,
because he is used to it.
I didn't say don't do it, I just said make it a choice and the popup is nothing
special it's a one time thing, so a WLM user
who wants to keep his habits can choose the ccard and a pure amsn/unix geek or
whatever will choose (jabber:p) the inline
thing.
You don't need to remove your code or put it as a plugin, it's in the core and
it will stay that way (until Phil starts a
revolution about the fact that it needs to be in a plugin)...
About the code position, I clearly said that it should be done inside its own
proc to allow for modularity and reuse of that
same code. Allowing us to draw the info either inline or in a ccard (didn't you
get the mail?)
The fact that you went and did it in drawContact instead of modularizing it
like I said was an offence to me, as if you did
only what you wanted and not wanting to allow ccard to coexist with your idea.
I might haave been off about that (stressful
week)
> If the result of this poll is negatoive for me, if most ppl dislike
> it, and I want you to be honest, I'll just remove it, I won't be angry
> about that. It just seemed like I was the only one doing something
> about drawing spaces info.
>
As I said, there's no need to remove it, cause I approve it myself, the idea is
good, what I don't want is for it to be forced
upon our users, they have to make a choice and they should be able to get the
ccard if they want to.
The poll is already going in your favor, so I guess this is already out of the
question, right ?
> I don't know anymore what I was going to say more, if I remind, I'll
> say it later. I just read this mail and it seems like you "insult"
> (this word is too heavy though) me for a dictator. I want to make
> clear I don't want to be seen like one.
>
no, I never said that you were a dictator, you can't dictate what to do, you
have every right to code it the way you want since
you're the ne doing the commits, but the fact that you didn't leave any room
for negociations on how to do it best is what I
disliked. Just like the option, I said make it use a variable to know whether
it should draw like this or like that and you
went and use a variable for either enabling or disabling the sapced thing and
you put in comments 'a plugin can put it to 0 if
you want to add ccard', which was like "if you want something do it as a
plugin, but this inline thing will be the 'main'
feature" without having everyone's opinion on this.
Dictator is not the word, I would rather use 'arrogant'. Thinking your idea is
better than anyone's.
> "why do you want your idea in the core and my idea only as a plugin?"
> is because I want a very usable aMSN, and my idea seemed better
> usability-wise, and I thought you wanted ccards just to be able to
> "clone" WLM. I didn't know you *hated* this inline idea. Also, this
> was *just an idea*, I started doing it this way because noone was
> forbidding it and noother was doing anything else. I did it because I
> thought "well, If I'm not gonna do it, noone else will do it" and I
> kind of hoped you'd like it afterwards. seems not, well, no problem
> for me. It will only demotivate me for a while, but I won't be angry
> or whatever.
>
I never said I hated your idea, I just said it didn't seem right. Usability,
yes, it's a good thing to do, but usability
DEPENDS on the person, always. the HIG is just a guideline, it's not a law, so
we may or may not follow the guideline it says,
it all depends. In amsn's case, this is a very special case, the contact list
has a function and it should only provide that
function, there is no HIG about how to create 'contact lists', we already
discussed that. Also, what makes amsn special in that
matter is te fact that it's a clone of another product. If that other product
doesn't follow the HIG, then it means we have the
choice of either choosing usability in the point of view of the HIG, or
usability in the point of view of what users accustomed
to WLM will find more usable for them.
You say you hoped I'd like it afterwards. I do, I always liked it, but I still
prefer ccards. I think that it makes the CL
really bloated, ever tried to open 10+ inline spaces ? how does the CL become ?
it becomes really really bloated, not nice to
look at, you can't just parse your CL with a look and see your contacts..
that's what I don't like. Also, with WLM, you could
only open one ccard at a time, so you click on your users and directly see
their card, the 'ccard' toplevel being replaced each
time (without flickering or anything) then when you finish, you just close it.
now, with your inline spaces, you need to open
AND close the spaces info for each user you look at.
Also, as you said, your eyes and mouse are moving down, so you click, it shows
down, you will usually move your mouse to the
center of the info, then when you want to close it, you need to go back up, it
can et distracting for some users, also, it is
in the upper left corner, not right corner and that's even more disturbing. +
the 500 ms delay for it to show up/disappear is
frustrating (this is caused by the redraw events being queued recently, I'll
talk about it laater).
While with a ccard, you click, the ccard appear, first, it's a change in your
screen so you notice it right away, it may be a
bit disturbing at first because of the reasons you pointed out before (you need
to refocus your eyes and everything), but then,
you get a good window with information needed, you click on a user in the cl,
the info is updated right away, how nice! once
you're done, you click to close it and you already know where to click, it's
stored in your memory.
concerning the 500ms delay I was talking about, it's because you added a queue
for redraw events, it's good, but I think it
should only apply to protocol events, for example a psm change, status change,
etc.. all that, I agree, should be queued, but
when a user clicks somewhere and that causes a redraw, it should be
instanttenuous because it's user interaction, he needs to
see the change right away, so I ws thinking about maybe adding a list of events
to queue and only queue those, or events to
execute right away and that would flush the queue..
I told Phil, don't know what he thinks, tell me what u think..
> About why I didn't do the "draw stuff on canvas" thing in another proc
> yet .. well , it's just the way I do things. As long as noone seems
> to just create the contactcards so I have another use-case for that
> proc, I do it the simple way. It's not that much work to move it over
> to another proc. I also started on this inline drawing just as a
> test, to see if my idea was possible. It's not that much work to
> remove it, and if you want to, I'll just remove it.
>
not modularizing code is not really 'the simple way'. Anyways, I think Phil
refactored everything now, we'll see how it works
out.
> I'm also going to respond to that other mail: I already used the
> ::hotmail::got_URL proc, it was changed over time.
>
ok.. but is it still not working ? I tried and it doesn't work, so it's weird..
do you think the .html file is not good ? or
that maybe the gotURL is wrong ? maybe that's why some people report they can't
access their profiles... maybe the auth is done
in a wrong way...
KKRT
> Karel.
>
> 2007/1/18, Youness Alaoui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 03:14:06PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote:
> > > 2007/1/13, Youness Alaoui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > Hello hello...
> > > > ok, now I remember your mockup! but let's start with NWM's mockup : bad
> > > > idea, too big, no more CL available, the
> > > > way yyou did it is good, but as a separate window.
> > > >
> > > > now about Karel. I must say, I didn't like it at all. well, I still
> > > > don't for one main reason : in your mockup
> > > > those photos/blog posts are from your contact "Vivia", but I know vivia
> > > > doesn't have any space :p
> > > > no, seriously, my main concern is that the CL is a CL, it's a contact
> > > > list, to see your contact and allow you to
> > > > interact. When you were saying the ccard is bad, I thought 'you may be
> > > > right, it's too small, clustered, etc.."
> > > > but I thought the idea would be to have an 'informational window' just
> > > > like the properties window when the user
> > > > can clearly see the info he wants. I didn't think you were talking
> > > > about an embeded thing inside the CL.
> > > > Your idea, for me at least, is not good because it renders the CL as
> > > > something else, it doesn't become a
> > > > "contact list" but a "contact/information list". To me, this idea would
> > > > be analog to clicking on the "you have
> > > > 10 new messages in your inbox" button and the CL expands to show you
> > > > all your emails... the CL is not a
> > > > browser...
> > > > it's like a dispatcher, it's there to give you QUICK ACCESS to your
> > > > contacts, their status and your inbox count.
> > > > Having that extra info is not in the 'philosophy' of a contact list.
> > > > I hope I got myself clear enough...
> > > Well, if you really mean that's the only use for out contactlist, then
> > > why do we show the music contacts play and how they feel (psm)?
> >
> > The PSM is part of the user information, it can be "in the shower" or
> > something, so it is usefull when looking
> > at the CL.
> >
> > > >
> > > > now, I didn't take too much time in reading your posts because.. well,
> > > > no offense, I just didn't feel like it :)
> > > > I did read them though but didn't spend much time on trying to
> > > > understand every dot and commas. The good news is
> > > > that your idea is not that 'bad', it just doesn't fit in the philosophy
> > > > of the CL (in MY opinion) BUT it is 100%
> > > > very good in terms of usability (without considering the fact that the
> > > > user might say 'wtf is this doing here').
> > > > Your point about how to rescan the screen, the direction of the parsing
> > > > of the list, the availability of the
> > > > info, etc.. I think it all makes perfect sense, the problem is just
> > > > that I don't know how the users would react
> > > > to that... I personally would say I prefer a ccard.
> > > >
> > > > If we go back in time a little, go back to the early days of my
> > > > participation in this project, I remember we had
> > > > some kind of rule : for EVERY new feature, make it optional, for
> > > > everything that may be done 2 ways, make it an
> > > > option...
> > > > actually, it was more of a customization thing and answering every
> > > > user's needs so you must be able to customize
> > > > everything your way, if a user asks for your mockup, we do it but as an
> > > > option, someone asks for a ccard, we do
> > > > it but as an option.
> > > > What I would like to propose is to have it both ways. The ccard is
> > > > really easy, it can be done in a few minutes,
> > > > I'm sure, I mean the whole code is there already, all we need to do is,
> > > > when inserting the data in the ccard,
> > > > add a few lines where we insert additional infos like blog posts and
> > > > such.
> > > > Your idea would take a bit more time I would guess, right ? but it
> > > > won't take too much either.
> > > > Hummm... I just noticed something, in your mockup, you have that
> > > > photos/ blog posts thing, and it looks exactly
> > > > the same as how it should go in the ccard, and the new CL is a canvas
> > > > and the ccard is probably also a canvas,
> > > > so we could have a proc :
> > > > proc buildSpaceInfo { canvas x y spaces_info } {
> > > > .... ;# get the info from $spaces_info and write it to $canvas at
> > > > $x $y
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > > proc clickOnSpacesButton { email } {
> > > > if { [config::getKey ccard_in_cl] } {
> > > > ::abook::setPersistantData $email show_ccard 1 ;# actually invert
> > > > the old value
> > > > } else {
> > > > openCCard $email
> > > > }
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > > proc openCCard { email } {
> > > > toplevel .ccard
> > > > ..........
> > > > canvas $cvs ...
> > > > .....
> > > > buildSpaceInfo $cvs $x $y [GetSpacesInfo $email]
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > > proc drawContact { email } {
> > > > ...
> > > > if { [abook::getPersistantData $email show_cccard 0] == 1 } {
> > > > buildSpaceInfo $pgBuddy.cl [expr $contact_x + 10] [expr $contact_y
> > > > + 30] [GetSpacesInfo $email]
> > > > }
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > that would be it.. we only need to write the code handling that data
> > > > once. And we could add the option in the
> > > > appeearance tab of the preferences.
> > > > What do you think ?
> > > > Because I am SURE that people will complain about the ccard not being
> > > > there.
> > > > + your ccard plugin is so nice, I would really hate to waste it :)
> > > > but for those who like usability, they can use your method.
> > > >
> > > > also, I would say that the first time you click on the spaces button, a
> > > > window would popup asking you which
> > > > method you choose, and in order to make it nice, a window like this :
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > | How do you want to see your contact's spaces information
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > | o In a contact card o Embeded in the contact list
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > | ---------------------------- ------------------------------
> > > > |
> > > > | | | | |
> > > > |
> > > > | | | | |
> > > > |
> > > > | | | | |
> > > > |
> > > > | | Screenshot | | Screenshot |
> > > > |
> > > > | | | | |
> > > > |
> > > > | | | | |
> > > > |
> > > > | | | | |
> > > > |
> > > > | ----------------------------- -------------------------------
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > | [Ok] [Cancel]
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Well, this makes it again a bad experience for someone using amsn for
> > > the first time. It's ok we ask for the tab-closing when closing
> > > chatwins or if he wants to close the app when he closes the main
> > > window ... as he might care enough of not loosing data (chats when
> > > not saving logs). But this is just an interface preference... If I
> > > had to use an aplication for the first timle and ever y time I click
> > > something it asks me a question I wouldn't use it for long ...
> > >
> >
> > I don't really see how it could be a bad user experience, it's a one time
> > choice, there is no reason why it
> > would bother a user, especially if he's going to use amsn for a while, and
> > for such a great feature, I really
> > don't think it would bother someone (first time you use mouse gestures with
> > opera, it asks you if you want to
> > enable them, or disable them, or whatever, and it's fine to ask such a
> > question). Also, by doing such a popup,
> > users will know that they have two ways of showing the ccard, either inline
> > or not and it's important especially
> > if you don't want the feature to go to waste since not everyone checks the
> > preferences.
> >
> > > So, what I had in mind ... we just draw it inline, but there's a
> > > config var to prohibit this. Whoever likes could make a contactcard
> > > plugin, reusing some code of aMSN (the drawing of photos etc, cfr
> > > infra), setting the var to 0 and so when a user clicks the button, a
> > > ccard is created. We could even ship such a plugin by default, though
> > > I'd like it to be disabled by default :).
> > >
> >
> > Well, I think that that's what YOU had in mind, and it's not what I have in
> > mind, so why would it be done your
> > way and not my way. I'm not saying your way is not good, I'm just saying
> > that over time, I realize that you
> > really rarely do compromises. I say we make a poll to avoid any
> > problems/tensions. Your idea of inline, I just
> > hate it, I really don't think it would go there (but I tried with latest
> > SVN and it does look nice), and I
> > really think that a ccard like WLM's would be the best way to go.
> > Your thing about setting the var to 0 and having a separate plugin is just
> > stupid IMHO because it complicates
> > things so much. An option would be so much better, no need for a separate
> > plugin or whatever, we already put
> > that in core, why do you want your idea in the core and my idea only as a
> > plugin???
> >
> > > > ok, that's a long enough mail for now, and I think (hope) you get my
> > > > point.
> > > > Now, what do you guys think ?
> > > > we need to decide on this so we can move forward!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > p.s: I think a modular function that writes the ccard info like shown
> > > > above can already be written until we
> > > > decide what to choose
> > >
> > > I'm now doing it in the guicontactlist.tcl code, but once it's done it
> > > could be moved to iot's own proc with parameter $canvaswidget and
> > > $xpos $ypos. But for now, I'm just doing it inside
> > > guicontactlist.tcl..
> > >
> >
> > I don't get it. I saw your code being inside the drawContact proc and it
> > frustrated me, seriously, what are you
> > loosing in putting it in a separate proc from the start? it's so much more
> > complicated and bug-prone to
> > refactor the code afterwards while it would have taken you only 5 seconds
> > to create a proc for it. I don't see
> > why you're being hard-headed on this matter, u got nothing to loose to do
> > it like I said, even if we were going
> > to keep the inline thing as default and no popup window asking to choose
> > between the two methods, then you still
> > have nothing to loose to do it like I said...
> >
> > Anyways, apart from that, good job so far, it looks nice!
> >
> > > Karel.
> > >
> > > > KKRT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Jan 13, 2007 at 02:41:10PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote:
> > > > > Forgot (for my proposal): as it takes some time to fetch all needed
> > > > > data, on a click, drawContact should only draw a temporary message
> > > > > like "Please stand by ..." and call the fetching procs ... then after
> > > > > this, the fetching procs should send an event or call drawContact
> > > > > again to draw the data...
> > > > >
> > > > > 2007/1/13, Karel Demeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > > > If (and it still has to be chosen, I'm not pushing anything (well,
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > too hard :p)) the choice would be made for inline ccard in CL, this
> > > > > > has to be done:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Add an abook var (boolean), not volatile so it 's still there in
> > > > > > another session, like "CcardShown" for every user. If this is not
> > > > > > volatile, we have an extra feature over WLM, to keep some user's
> > > > > > ccard
> > > > > > data allways shown, I would like this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * In guicontactlist.tcl:
> > > > > > - in proc drawContact, have a check for this var and if
> > > > > > available, draw the data underneah the contact, according to my
> > > > > > mockup
> > > > > > :)
> > > > > > - in that same proc, rearrange the tags somewhat. the tag
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > things of the contact have should be added to every item of the
> > > > > > space,
> > > > > > also the stars (it is this way now), for the dragging procs.; a new
> > > > > > tag should be created and changed in the bindings for clicking on
> > > > > > those items (all nickname items, statusicon, psm items, statusmsg)
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > open a chatwindow;
> > > > > > - have a binding on the star that: *toggles the abook var;
> > > > > > *calls the drawContact proc for that specific contact; *call the
> > > > > > rearrangeList (or what it's named) proc to move everything
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's not too much work in fact thus. I guess it's less work than
> > > > > > changing the ccard plugin. An eventual ccard plugin should made
> > > > > > possible to prevent drawContact from drawing the spaces info (a
> > > > > > global
> > > > > > ::config key "drawSpacesOnCL" maybe) and change the binding of teh
> > > > > > "star" icon.
> > > > > > Anyway, I don't have the time to do this. In fact I have a very
> > > > > > hard
> > > > > > exam of one of my Law courses monday so I shouldn't even be mailing
> > > > > > this but I couldn't resist as I want to lobby for my idea :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2007/1/13, Karel Demeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > > > > I favour to have this data in the CL as all those new windows only
> > > > > > > cover up your screen. Added that when we don't want window
> > > > > > > borders
> > > > > > > drawn by the windowmanager (and I guess we don't), it means we'll
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > windows unmanaged by the windowmanager and thus allways on top on
> > > > > > > teh
> > > > > > > screen. I, for one, find this very unpleasant. Addded that those
> > > > > > > windows are not consistent with all other UI apsects on one's
> > > > > > > computer, I think it's bad UI design.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > See, when you want to do a task on your PC, you want the UI to
> > > > > > > enable
> > > > > > > you to work fast and efficient. If I open this data by clicking
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > that "star" and the data appears just underneath my pointer, it's
> > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > fast to reach with the mouse. If I click, and it opens another
> > > > > > > window, I have to rescan my screen to find out where to find it's
> > > > > > > info
> > > > > > > as it will not be just where I was. Ok, I guess WLM's ccards
> > > > > > > appear
> > > > > > > close to the place you clicked... but if they appear under your
> > > > > > > cursor, it means they cover the data of the CL. If they appear
> > > > > > > next
> > > > > > > to the contactlist, they appear further from your pointer and so
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > have to move your mouse for longer, which is not a good thing.
> > > > > > > Also, when you scan your CL to find a contact, you go top-down or
> > > > > > > bottom-up. As in most languages we read top-down, most ppl will
> > > > > > > scan
> > > > > > > there CL top-down (sidenote: this is another reasong why I dislike
> > > > > > > WIndow's start-menu bottom-left). So, if I'm scanning my list,
> > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > my friend, click the star, the fastest place to reach for the new
> > > > > > > info
> > > > > > > is just underneath it as I was already moving my eyes in that
> > > > > > > direction... Those seem like small details maybe but in fact it
> > > > > > > makes life easier for a lot of people. I guess if we implement it
> > > > > > > this way there will be complaints, just as there are complaints
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > ever UI design choice (yeah, even if they come from Apple Inc.
> > > > > > > ;)) But
> > > > > > > I think it's worth the hassle.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2007/1/13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 13/01/07, NoWhereMan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Karel Demeyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > > To: "Mailing list for developers and everyone helping AMSN"
> > > > > > > > > <amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:57 AM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Amsn-devel] Contact Cards and MSN spaces
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >I just implemented an Event for a changed space. Now, I was
> > > > > > > > > >asking
> > > > > > > > > > myself ... how do we know when we can unset the star's
> > > > > > > > > > appearance ?
> > > > > > > > > > When do we know the blog is read ? When our user clicks
> > > > > > > > > > the star ?
> > > > > > > > > > Doesn't the protocol let us know when the blog has no
> > > > > > > > > > unread items or
> > > > > > > > > > unseen photos ?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Karel.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > in MSN7.5 gleam disappears when you click to see the ccard,
> > > > > > > > > so I guess
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > once you clicked you can set a local variable read($user) to
> > > > > > > > > 1;
> > > > > > > > > gleams are client-side, so if you set a space to read on a
> > > > > > > > > client if you
> > > > > > > > log
> > > > > > > > > in from another pc you should still see blinking gleams.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > about the ccard embedded in CL... I don't know, it would be
> > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > "compressed"... how about an in-CL ccard ?
> > > > > > > > > http://i18.tinypic.com/2e5mg02.png
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > with a "< back" link to the main cl... I don't know maybe
> > > > > > > > > it's even worse
> > > > > > > > > than the msn-style ccards :P
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I prefer karel's method :P I don't mind the popup card to be
> > > > > > > > honest, but I
> > > > > > > > do think Karel's 'expand-the-contact' thing has a certain
> > > > > > > > appeal :) I like
> > > > > > > > it and if we're saying no to the popup card I think we should
> > > > > > > > be saying yes
> > > > > > > > to the in-Cl expand thing :P
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > bye
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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