I'm going to answer inline before reading it all. I might not read it
all yet as I'm tired and about to sleep.
2007/1/19, Youness Alaoui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I'll try to be brief because I'm at work, but if you need to talk about this
> more or you need me to explain better something I
> said, you can lways do it by PM.
>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 05:53:36PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote:
> > After a power shortage of 24 hours, let me make something clear:
> > I never said "aMSN is going to use my thing !", nor did I say we
> > shouldn't let the user choose, I said I wouldn''t like another pop-up
> > but I didn't demand this. I'm not a dictator. You say I'm not in for
> > compromises ... well, I just code what I like ... as most ppl here
> > didn't say "I'd never want the inline spaces", I started doing
> > something, noone started on the cards, after there are cards, you can
> > have the user choose. Even if you come up with a third solution, let
> > it be. If everyone is sure my idea is bad and expresses it that way,
> > I'll remove everything I committed and make a plugin for myself alone.
> > You asked why I started doing it in the drawContact proc ... well,
> > because this was my idea and nobody stated clearly this shouldn't be
> > done inside that proc. It seemed easier to me to do it there and it
> > was just where I started. All things drawed related to contacts are
> > in that same proc ... ok, always reading that code I put in could
> > generate too much cpu-wotrk for nothing you think. Changing it is
> > simple.
> >
> first, we're not here to make a war, there has been enough flame wars in the
> past and we all know how it can be bad to start a
> new one here. I didn't say you're a dictator, just saying that you leave no
> place for compromise, you get an idea about
> something 'usable' and you think it's the only best solution possible. About
> you just code what you like, I agree and that's
> perfectly normal, I can't tell you to code something you don't even want! so
> there shouldn't be any regret in coding it your
> way and I know that if I wanted it to be ccards I would have coded the ccards
> myself too and that's probably what I'm going to
> do once I get the time for it. Your idea is not bad, and I never said it is
> bad, I always said it's a good idea and I'm sure
> many people will like it, but :
> 1 - I don't really like it
> 2 - it is far better in usability terms, but worse in 'expectations' terms
> 3 - from a point of view of a WLM user, a ccard is far more usable than that,
> because he is used to it.
>
> I didn't say don't do it, I just said make it a choice and the popup is
> nothing special it's a one time thing, so a WLM user
> who wants to keep his habits can choose the ccard and a pure amsn/unix geek
> or whatever will choose (jabber:p) the inline
> thing.
> You don't need to remove your code or put it as a plugin, it's in the core
> and it will stay that way (until Phil starts a
> revolution about the fact that it needs to be in a plugin)...
>
> About the code position, I clearly said that it should be done inside its own
> proc to allow for modularity and reuse of that
> same code. Allowing us to draw the info either inline or in a ccard (didn't
> you get the mail?)
> The fact that you went and did it in drawContact instead of modularizing it
> like I said was an offence to me, as if you did
> only what you wanted and not wanting to allow ccard to coexist with your
> idea. I might haave been off about that (stressful
> week)
Well, in my local copy, the code is already in it's own proc inside
gui.tcl. I didn't commit it because I'm waiting for Phil's commits.
It really doesn't take me too much time to put it it's own proc as I
still have to rewrite things on and on... It was only for testing
purposes I put it in guicontactlist.tcl. Just for making it easy for
myself as all the code where it depends on is just above it in that
same file. I didn't want to sound arrogant by placing it there. You
wanted a var to choose between the both, but there was only 1 choice
yet, so I made it a var to draw the spaces inline or not, with a
comment that told about how I'd like it but it's still experimental
code (I said this in all commits, like "experimental" or "just
testing"). Nothing is rock solid in any of these lines ...
>
> > If the result of this poll is negatoive for me, if most ppl dislike
> > it, and I want you to be honest, I'll just remove it, I won't be angry
> > about that. It just seemed like I was the only one doing something
> > about drawing spaces info.
> >
> As I said, there's no need to remove it, cause I approve it myself, the idea
> is good, what I don't want is for it to be forced
> upon our users, they have to make a choice and they should be able to get the
> ccard if they want to.
> The poll is already going in your favor, so I guess this is already out of
> the question, right ?
Look, you found it a bad idea to put the ccards in a plugin. And I
won't be angry if they come in the core, I just created the code the
way I liked it, so you could see what I meant (cause that's not always
clear) but nothing said it couldn't be changed. If someone puts in
ccard code it won't take long to change that var. Creating it already
for what has to come isn't very succesfull as it will have to be
changed anyway ...it's always the same with software, no ? :)
You want ccards in the code because you think users expect this.
Well, I wouldn't want this, but, shouldn't we enable the
doubledisplaypicture plugin by default then too ? Or put it that way
in the core and having a plugin/option to remove it ?
>
> > I don't know anymore what I was going to say more, if I remind, I'll
> > say it later. I just read this mail and it seems like you "insult"
> > (this word is too heavy though) me for a dictator. I want to make
> > clear I don't want to be seen like one.
> >
> no, I never said that you were a dictator, you can't dictate what to do, you
> have every right to code it the way you want since
> you're the ne doing the commits, but the fact that you didn't leave any room
> for negociations on how to do it best is what I
> disliked.
Well, I think you have a bad idea about me. I sure am open though I
do my best to convince you of what I'd like to see. How can I convinc
you without code ? If I wanted to change some aspect in Gnome for
example, I'll have to write code to demo it; a mockup won't do.
> Just like the option, I said make it use a variable to know whether it should
> draw like this or like that and you
> went and use a variable for either enabling or disabling the sapced thing and
> you put in comments 'a plugin can put it to 0 if
> you want to add ccard', which was like "if you want something do it as a
> plugin, but this inline thing will be the 'main'
> feature" without having everyone's opinion on this.
Cfr supra, it was not meant to be "unchangeable" or whatever, more
like a demo of what I thought. I expected you to tell "well no, it's
not good" and if most ppl think this way I'd change it immediately.
But now we have only 1 implementation so I'd better have a var to
disable it then one to choose between this and something that doesn't
exist yet ...
> Dictator is not the word, I would rather use 'arrogant'. Thinking your idea
> is better than anyone's.
It's sounds hard for me, but I understand why you feel so, I think.
I hop I'll sound more humble in the future, but I just thought I had
to implement it "my way" first to show what I thought. The words in
my comment above that code sound a bit wrong, I understand. It was
more meant like "See, if we would do it this way, it would work this
way"...
>
> > "why do you want your idea in the core and my idea only as a plugin?"
> > is because I want a very usable aMSN, and my idea seemed better
> > usability-wise, and I thought you wanted ccards just to be able to
> > "clone" WLM. I didn't know you *hated* this inline idea. Also, this
> > was *just an idea*, I started doing it this way because noone was
> > forbidding it and noother was doing anything else. I did it because I
> > thought "well, If I'm not gonna do it, noone else will do it" and I
> > kind of hoped you'd like it afterwards. seems not, well, no problem
> > for me. It will only demotivate me for a while, but I won't be angry
> > or whatever.
> >
> I never said I hated your idea, I just said it didn't seem right. Usability,
> yes, it's a good thing to do, but usability
> DEPENDS on the person, always. the HIG is just a guideline, it's not a law,
> so we may or may not follow the guideline it says,
> it all depends. In amsn's case, this is a very special case, the contact list
> has a function and it should only provide that
> function, there is no HIG about how to create 'contact lists', we already
> discussed that. Also, what makes amsn special in that
> matter is te fact that it's a clone of another product. If that other product
> doesn't follow the HIG, then it means we have the
> choice of either choosing usability in the point of view of the HIG, or
> usability in the point of view of what users accustomed
> to WLM will find more usable for them.
> You say you hoped I'd like it afterwards. I do, I always liked it, but I
> still prefer ccards. I think that it makes the CL
> really bloated, ever tried to open 10+ inline spaces ? how does the CL become
> ? it becomes really really bloated, not nice to
> look at, you can't just parse your CL with a look and see your contacts..
> that's what I don't like. Also, with WLM, you could
> only open one ccard at a time, so you click on your users and directly see
> their card, the 'ccard' toplevel being replaced each
> time (without flickering or anything) then when you finish, you just close it.
I didn't know about this, sounds interesting (though I still prefer inline ;))
> now, with your inline spaces, you need to open
> AND close the spaces info for each user you look at
> Also, as you said, your eyes and mouse are moving down, so you click, it
> shows down, you will usually move your mouse to the
> center of the info, then when you want to close it, you need to go back up,
> it can et distracting for some users, also, it is
> in the upper left corner, not right corner and that's even more disturbing. +
> the 500 ms delay for it to show up/disappear is
> frustrating (this is caused by the redraw events being queued recently, I'll
> talk about it laater).
> While with a ccard, you click, the ccard appear, first, it's a change in your
> screen so you notice it right away, it may be a
> bit disturbing at first because of the reasons you pointed out before (you
> need to refocus your eyes and everything), but then,
> you get a good window with information needed, you click on a user in the cl,
> the info is updated right away, how nice! once
> you're done, you click to close it and you already know where to click, it's
> stored in your memory.
So the ccard opens at the same spot for every user ? I'll test this on
a windows PC once as I don't know about this. Reading this, I see
ccards have some pro's too, don't take me wrong, I'm going to admit
it. But still, I'm more in favour for the inline ones
>
> concerning the 500ms delay I was talking about, it's because you added a
> queue for redraw events, it's good, but I think it
> should only apply to protocol events, for example a psm change, status
> change, etc.. all that, I agree, should be queued, but
> when a user clicks somewhere and that causes a redraw, it should be
> instanttenuous because it's user interaction, he needs to
> see the change right away, so I ws thinking about maybe adding a list of
> events to queue and only queue those, or events to
> execute right away and that would flush the queue..
> I told Phil, don't know what he thinks, tell me what u think..
Well, when we register events, we now register for "all" sources.
Maybe should make it possible to have a "all minus protocol" option
there or something and register once for protocol, once for other
sources and give the proc we assign to event to an extra var,
depending on the source ? Or maybe we should just add the source to
the vars sent with the event ?
>
> > About why I didn't do the "draw stuff on canvas" thing in another proc
> > yet .. well , it's just the way I do things. As long as noone seems
> > to just create the contactcards so I have another use-case for that
> > proc, I do it the simple way. It's not that much work to move it over
> > to another proc. I also started on this inline drawing just as a
> > test, to see if my idea was possible. It's not that much work to
> > remove it, and if you want to, I'll just remove it.
> >
> not modularizing code is not really 'the simple way'. Anyways, I think Phil
> refactored everything now, we'll see how it works
> out.
>
> > I'm also going to respond to that other mail: I already used the
> > ::hotmail::got_URL proc, it was changed over time.
> >
> ok.. but is it still not working ? I tried and it doesn't work, so it's
> weird.. do you think the .html file is not good ? or
> that maybe the gotURL is wrong ? maybe that's why some people report they
> can't access their profiles... maybe the auth is done
> in a wrong way...
I don't know about this. I asked vivia once but then I found the
gotURL proc and it seemed to work for me.
>
> KKRT
>
> > Karel.
> >
> > 2007/1/18, Youness Alaoui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 03:14:06PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote:
> > > > 2007/1/13, Youness Alaoui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > > Hello hello...
> > > > > ok, now I remember your mockup! but let's start with NWM's mockup :
> > > > > bad idea, too big, no more CL available, the
> > > > > way yyou did it is good, but as a separate window.
> > > > >
> > > > > now about Karel. I must say, I didn't like it at all. well, I still
> > > > > don't for one main reason : in your mockup
> > > > > those photos/blog posts are from your contact "Vivia", but I know
> > > > > vivia doesn't have any space :p
> > > > > no, seriously, my main concern is that the CL is a CL, it's a contact
> > > > > list, to see your contact and allow you to
> > > > > interact. When you were saying the ccard is bad, I thought 'you may
> > > > > be right, it's too small, clustered, etc.."
> > > > > but I thought the idea would be to have an 'informational window'
> > > > > just like the properties window when the user
> > > > > can clearly see the info he wants. I didn't think you were talking
> > > > > about an embeded thing inside the CL.
> > > > > Your idea, for me at least, is not good because it renders the CL as
> > > > > something else, it doesn't become a
> > > > > "contact list" but a "contact/information list". To me, this idea
> > > > > would be analog to clicking on the "you have
> > > > > 10 new messages in your inbox" button and the CL expands to show you
> > > > > all your emails... the CL is not a
> > > > > browser...
> > > > > it's like a dispatcher, it's there to give you QUICK ACCESS to your
> > > > > contacts, their status and your inbox count.
> > > > > Having that extra info is not in the 'philosophy' of a contact list.
> > > > > I hope I got myself clear enough...
> > > > Well, if you really mean that's the only use for out contactlist, then
> > > > why do we show the music contacts play and how they feel (psm)?
> > >
> > > The PSM is part of the user information, it can be "in the shower" or
> > > something, so it is usefull when looking
> > > at the CL.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > now, I didn't take too much time in reading your posts because..
> > > > > well, no offense, I just didn't feel like it :)
> > > > > I did read them though but didn't spend much time on trying to
> > > > > understand every dot and commas. The good news is
> > > > > that your idea is not that 'bad', it just doesn't fit in the
> > > > > philosophy of the CL (in MY opinion) BUT it is 100%
> > > > > very good in terms of usability (without considering the fact that
> > > > > the user might say 'wtf is this doing here').
> > > > > Your point about how to rescan the screen, the direction of the
> > > > > parsing of the list, the availability of the
> > > > > info, etc.. I think it all makes perfect sense, the problem is just
> > > > > that I don't know how the users would react
> > > > > to that... I personally would say I prefer a ccard.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we go back in time a little, go back to the early days of my
> > > > > participation in this project, I remember we had
> > > > > some kind of rule : for EVERY new feature, make it optional, for
> > > > > everything that may be done 2 ways, make it an
> > > > > option...
> > > > > actually, it was more of a customization thing and answering every
> > > > > user's needs so you must be able to customize
> > > > > everything your way, if a user asks for your mockup, we do it but as
> > > > > an option, someone asks for a ccard, we do
> > > > > it but as an option.
> > > > > What I would like to propose is to have it both ways. The ccard is
> > > > > really easy, it can be done in a few minutes,
> > > > > I'm sure, I mean the whole code is there already, all we need to do
> > > > > is, when inserting the data in the ccard,
> > > > > add a few lines where we insert additional infos like blog posts and
> > > > > such.
> > > > > Your idea would take a bit more time I would guess, right ? but it
> > > > > won't take too much either.
> > > > > Hummm... I just noticed something, in your mockup, you have that
> > > > > photos/ blog posts thing, and it looks exactly
> > > > > the same as how it should go in the ccard, and the new CL is a canvas
> > > > > and the ccard is probably also a canvas,
> > > > > so we could have a proc :
> > > > > proc buildSpaceInfo { canvas x y spaces_info } {
> > > > > .... ;# get the info from $spaces_info and write it to $canvas at
> > > > > $x $y
> > > > > }
> > > > >
> > > > > proc clickOnSpacesButton { email } {
> > > > > if { [config::getKey ccard_in_cl] } {
> > > > > ::abook::setPersistantData $email show_ccard 1 ;# actually
> > > > > invert the old value
> > > > > } else {
> > > > > openCCard $email
> > > > > }
> > > > > }
> > > > >
> > > > > proc openCCard { email } {
> > > > > toplevel .ccard
> > > > > ..........
> > > > > canvas $cvs ...
> > > > > .....
> > > > > buildSpaceInfo $cvs $x $y [GetSpacesInfo $email]
> > > > > }
> > > > >
> > > > > proc drawContact { email } {
> > > > > ...
> > > > > if { [abook::getPersistantData $email show_cccard 0] == 1 } {
> > > > > buildSpaceInfo $pgBuddy.cl [expr $contact_x + 10] [expr
> > > > > $contact_y + 30] [GetSpacesInfo $email]
> > > > > }
> > > > > }
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > that would be it.. we only need to write the code handling that data
> > > > > once. And we could add the option in the
> > > > > appeearance tab of the preferences.
> > > > > What do you think ?
> > > > > Because I am SURE that people will complain about the ccard not being
> > > > > there.
> > > > > + your ccard plugin is so nice, I would really hate to waste it :)
> > > > > but for those who like usability, they can use your method.
> > > > >
> > > > > also, I would say that the first time you click on the spaces button,
> > > > > a window would popup asking you which
> > > > > method you choose, and in order to make it nice, a window like this :
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > | How do you want to see your contact's spaces information
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > | o In a contact card o Embeded in the contact list
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > | ---------------------------- ------------------------------
> > > > > |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | |
> > > > > | | Screenshot | | Screenshot
> > > > > | |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | |
> > > > > | -----------------------------
> > > > > ------------------------------- |
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > | [Ok] [Cancel]
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Well, this makes it again a bad experience for someone using amsn for
> > > > the first time. It's ok we ask for the tab-closing when closing
> > > > chatwins or if he wants to close the app when he closes the main
> > > > window ... as he might care enough of not loosing data (chats when
> > > > not saving logs). But this is just an interface preference... If I
> > > > had to use an aplication for the first timle and ever y time I click
> > > > something it asks me a question I wouldn't use it for long ...
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't really see how it could be a bad user experience, it's a one time
> > > choice, there is no reason why it
> > > would bother a user, especially if he's going to use amsn for a while,
> > > and for such a great feature, I really
> > > don't think it would bother someone (first time you use mouse gestures
> > > with opera, it asks you if you want to
> > > enable them, or disable them, or whatever, and it's fine to ask such a
> > > question). Also, by doing such a popup,
> > > users will know that they have two ways of showing the ccard, either
> > > inline or not and it's important especially
> > > if you don't want the feature to go to waste since not everyone checks
> > > the preferences.
> > >
> > > > So, what I had in mind ... we just draw it inline, but there's a
> > > > config var to prohibit this. Whoever likes could make a contactcard
> > > > plugin, reusing some code of aMSN (the drawing of photos etc, cfr
> > > > infra), setting the var to 0 and so when a user clicks the button, a
> > > > ccard is created. We could even ship such a plugin by default, though
> > > > I'd like it to be disabled by default :).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, I think that that's what YOU had in mind, and it's not what I have
> > > in mind, so why would it be done your
> > > way and not my way. I'm not saying your way is not good, I'm just saying
> > > that over time, I realize that you
> > > really rarely do compromises. I say we make a poll to avoid any
> > > problems/tensions. Your idea of inline, I just
> > > hate it, I really don't think it would go there (but I tried with latest
> > > SVN and it does look nice), and I
> > > really think that a ccard like WLM's would be the best way to go.
> > > Your thing about setting the var to 0 and having a separate plugin is
> > > just stupid IMHO because it complicates
> > > things so much. An option would be so much better, no need for a separate
> > > plugin or whatever, we already put
> > > that in core, why do you want your idea in the core and my idea only as a
> > > plugin???
> > >
> > > > > ok, that's a long enough mail for now, and I think (hope) you get my
> > > > > point.
> > > > > Now, what do you guys think ?
> > > > > we need to decide on this so we can move forward!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > p.s: I think a modular function that writes the ccard info like shown
> > > > > above can already be written until we
> > > > > decide what to choose
> > > >
> > > > I'm now doing it in the guicontactlist.tcl code, but once it's done it
> > > > could be moved to iot's own proc with parameter $canvaswidget and
> > > > $xpos $ypos. But for now, I'm just doing it inside
> > > > guicontactlist.tcl..
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't get it. I saw your code being inside the drawContact proc and it
> > > frustrated me, seriously, what are you
> > > loosing in putting it in a separate proc from the start? it's so much
> > > more complicated and bug-prone to
> > > refactor the code afterwards while it would have taken you only 5 seconds
> > > to create a proc for it. I don't see
> > > why you're being hard-headed on this matter, u got nothing to loose to do
> > > it like I said, even if we were going
> > > to keep the inline thing as default and no popup window asking to choose
> > > between the two methods, then you still
> > > have nothing to loose to do it like I said...
> > >
> > > Anyways, apart from that, good job so far, it looks nice!
> > >
> > > > Karel.
> > > >
> > > > > KKRT
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Jan 13, 2007 at 02:41:10PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote:
> > > > > > Forgot (for my proposal): as it takes some time to fetch all needed
> > > > > > data, on a click, drawContact should only draw a temporary message
> > > > > > like "Please stand by ..." and call the fetching procs ... then
> > > > > > after
> > > > > > this, the fetching procs should send an event or call drawContact
> > > > > > again to draw the data...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2007/1/13, Karel Demeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > > > > If (and it still has to be chosen, I'm not pushing anything
> > > > > > > (well, not
> > > > > > > too hard :p)) the choice would be made for inline ccard in CL,
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > has to be done:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Add an abook var (boolean), not volatile so it 's still there in
> > > > > > > another session, like "CcardShown" for every user. If this is not
> > > > > > > volatile, we have an extra feature over WLM, to keep some user's
> > > > > > > ccard
> > > > > > > data allways shown, I would like this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * In guicontactlist.tcl:
> > > > > > > - in proc drawContact, have a check for this var and if
> > > > > > > available, draw the data underneah the contact, according to my
> > > > > > > mockup
> > > > > > > :)
> > > > > > > - in that same proc, rearrange the tags somewhat. the
> > > > > > > tag all
> > > > > > > things of the contact have should be added to every item of the
> > > > > > > space,
> > > > > > > also the stars (it is this way now), for the dragging procs.; a
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > tag should be created and changed in the bindings for clicking on
> > > > > > > those items (all nickname items, statusicon, psm items,
> > > > > > > statusmsg) to
> > > > > > > open a chatwindow;
> > > > > > > - have a binding on the star that: *toggles the abook var;
> > > > > > > *calls the drawContact proc for that specific contact; *call the
> > > > > > > rearrangeList (or what it's named) proc to move everything
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's not too much work in fact thus. I guess it's less work than
> > > > > > > changing the ccard plugin. An eventual ccard plugin should made
> > > > > > > possible to prevent drawContact from drawing the spaces info (a
> > > > > > > global
> > > > > > > ::config key "drawSpacesOnCL" maybe) and change the binding of teh
> > > > > > > "star" icon.
> > > > > > > Anyway, I don't have the time to do this. In fact I have a very
> > > > > > > hard
> > > > > > > exam of one of my Law courses monday so I shouldn't even be
> > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > this but I couldn't resist as I want to lobby for my idea :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karel.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2007/1/13, Karel Demeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > > > > > I favour to have this data in the CL as all those new windows
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > cover up your screen. Added that when we don't want window
> > > > > > > > borders
> > > > > > > > drawn by the windowmanager (and I guess we don't), it means
> > > > > > > > we'll have
> > > > > > > > windows unmanaged by the windowmanager and thus allways on top
> > > > > > > > on teh
> > > > > > > > screen. I, for one, find this very unpleasant. Addded that
> > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > windows are not consistent with all other UI apsects on one's
> > > > > > > > computer, I think it's bad UI design.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See, when you want to do a task on your PC, you want the UI to
> > > > > > > > enable
> > > > > > > > you to work fast and efficient. If I open this data by
> > > > > > > > clicking on
> > > > > > > > that "star" and the data appears just underneath my pointer,
> > > > > > > > it's very
> > > > > > > > fast to reach with the mouse. If I click, and it opens another
> > > > > > > > window, I have to rescan my screen to find out where to find
> > > > > > > > it's info
> > > > > > > > as it will not be just where I was. Ok, I guess WLM's ccards
> > > > > > > > appear
> > > > > > > > close to the place you clicked... but if they appear under your
> > > > > > > > cursor, it means they cover the data of the CL. If they appear
> > > > > > > > next
> > > > > > > > to the contactlist, they appear further from your pointer and
> > > > > > > > so you
> > > > > > > > have to move your mouse for longer, which is not a good thing.
> > > > > > > > Also, when you scan your CL to find a contact, you go top-down
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > bottom-up. As in most languages we read top-down, most ppl
> > > > > > > > will scan
> > > > > > > > there CL top-down (sidenote: this is another reasong why I
> > > > > > > > dislike
> > > > > > > > WIndow's start-menu bottom-left). So, if I'm scanning my list,
> > > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > my friend, click the star, the fastest place to reach for the
> > > > > > > > new info
> > > > > > > > is just underneath it as I was already moving my eyes in that
> > > > > > > > direction... Those seem like small details maybe but in fact
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > makes life easier for a lot of people. I guess if we implement
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > this way there will be complaints, just as there are complaints
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > ever UI design choice (yeah, even if they come from Apple Inc.
> > > > > > > > ;)) But
> > > > > > > > I think it's worth the hassle.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Karel
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2007/1/13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 13/01/07, NoWhereMan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: "Karel Demeyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > > > To: "Mailing list for developers and everyone helping AMSN"
> > > > > > > > > > <amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:57 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Amsn-devel] Contact Cards and MSN spaces
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >I just implemented an Event for a changed space. Now, I
> > > > > > > > > > >was asking
> > > > > > > > > > > myself ... how do we know when we can unset the star's
> > > > > > > > > > > appearance ?
> > > > > > > > > > > When do we know the blog is read ? When our user clicks
> > > > > > > > > > > the star ?
> > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't the protocol let us know when the blog has no
> > > > > > > > > > > unread items or
> > > > > > > > > > > unseen photos ?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Karel.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > in MSN7.5 gleam disappears when you click to see the ccard,
> > > > > > > > > > so I guess
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > once you clicked you can set a local variable read($user)
> > > > > > > > > > to 1;
> > > > > > > > > > gleams are client-side, so if you set a space to read on a
> > > > > > > > > > client if you
> > > > > > > > > log
> > > > > > > > > > in from another pc you should still see blinking gleams.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > about the ccard embedded in CL... I don't know, it would be
> > > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > "compressed"... how about an in-CL ccard ?
> > > > > > > > > > http://i18.tinypic.com/2e5mg02.png
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > with a "< back" link to the main cl... I don't know maybe
> > > > > > > > > > it's even worse
> > > > > > > > > > than the msn-style ccards :P
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I prefer karel's method :P I don't mind the popup card to be
> > > > > > > > > honest, but I
> > > > > > > > > do think Karel's 'expand-the-contact' thing has a certain
> > > > > > > > > appeal :) I like
> > > > > > > > > it and if we're saying no to the popup card I think we should
> > > > > > > > > be saying yes
> > > > > > > > > to the in-Cl expand thing :P
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > bye
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
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