So why then after ripe-604 has been implemented for several months in their
region are they not seeing that happen. They left some controls in their
polices for RIPE to handle that if it happens.
Steven L Ryerse
President
100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338
770.656.1460 - Cell
770.399.9099 - Office
770.392-0076 - Fax
℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
Conquering Complex Networks℠
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Frank Bulk
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:38 AM
To: 'Adam Thompson'; Randy Carpenter; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Internet Fairness
For those of us in the "NAT is bad"
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v26BAlfWBm8) camp, the risk I perceive with a
purely capitalistic model is that many organizations will sell their IPv4
address space to the highest bidder (who may hoard it) and even more NAT will
be deployed. While the effects of CGN are documented (i.e.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7021), I think that many network operators will
(choose to) ignore those (to the detriment of their end users) or capitalize on
that by charging extra to those who don't want to go through CGN. In reaction,
applications and services will be further modified to address CGN, the opposite
of my preferred approach towards end-to-end communication.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Adam Thompson
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 9:43 PM
To: Randy Carpenter; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Internet Fairness
On 14-12-19 08:02 PM, Randy Carpenter wrote:
> A capitalistic model does not work for a finite resource like IP
addresses.
I'm not even a Smithian capitalist, and I see the first problem here:
Why doesn't it work?
Market stability will be reached according to every economic theory I've read,
regardless of whether the resources are finite or not. It may be that stability
means a gradually-increasing price for a while followed by rapid inflation, but
estimates I've heard posit that IPv6 deployment will be widespread by the time
the market price would otherwise skyrocket.
> All that would happen is that a large company could just buy up all of
> the
space, and then set its own price for everyone else.
Really? How many universities and large organizations have /8s, /9s, and /10s,
that they would almost immediately start the process of monetizing? It's
"easy" (*cough*) - switch to NAT'd private addresses, switch to IPv6, whatever.
Heck, simple disaggregation of large blocks would release tons of /16 and
longer prefixes based on the usage patterns I've seen at most large
organizations. ISPs are not generally included in this, they tend to use what
they have. IBM, HP/Compaq/DEC, MIT, Princeton, Harvard, etc., etc., however,
are the poster children for low usage. They just don't have a big enough
incentive to worry about it yet.
Also, see my previous posts for references to academic treatment of the fact
that hoarding *isn't a bad thing* in the free market. Of course, this isn't a
free market yet, so there's an argument to be made there...
> How's that for "fairness" ?? I don't see how you can argue for
> treating
smaller orgs more fairly by proposing to allow large companies to set whatever
ridiculous price they want.
The playing field is then level - all new entrants get to simply pay the going
rate, with no (perceived?) favouritism towards incumbents or large entrants.
This assumes there's a reasonable relationship between the price of a /16 and
the price of a /24, of course. Smith's "invisible hand" should, in theory,
assure this...
> I still don't get the needs argument at all. If an org can't show that
> it
needs the addresses, then why do they need the addresses?
Why should I have to disclose to a third party exactly what my plans are? Even
the IRS (or CRA, here) doesn't need that level of detail.
I'm sure the NSA knows exactly what my plans are, but if I have deep enough
pockets, I don't see why this resource - almost alone among all common
resources both natural and artificial - should be forbidden to me.
The only other example I can think of that is widely-known is New York (and
elsewhere) Taxicab licenses... and almost everyone except taxicab license
owners thinks that system is, shall we say, suboptimal.
All of the points above here are posited on the fact that the US is, at least
supposedly, a Smithian capitalist society that embraces the free market.
I happen to think capitalism is fundamentally broken, but at the same time I'd
rather let the market control what I can and can't do rather than a handful of
regulators who I *know* don't have my interests at heart. (Nor is that their
mandate, I don't mean they're behaving
maliciously!)
In essence, above is theory, below is practical.
Moving on to problems in the areas of policy, bias, and technical:
> I agree that in the past it was difficult for small non-multihomed
> orgs to
get space. But now that the minimum is a /24, it is so ridiculously easy.
Does multihoming, per se, meet the (v4) needs test after the policy changes in
2014? If yes, I can live with the situation. If no, then small entities are
still getting screwed.
As a small-to-medium-sized enterprise, I probably NAT my entire company behind
one or two (possibly not even contiguous) IP addresses, with maybe another half
dozen publicly-visible servers. But if I want to be multi-homed, I must first
use >64 public IPs, and come up with a reason to use >128 public IPs within a
year. What if I just need those 6 or 7 IPs to be highly available?
Under the current NRPM, the only apparent way a small org can multi-home
(v4) is to get a reassignment from an ISP, at which point they're stuck with
that ISP pretty much forever, barring a painful and expensive renumbering
process (say, ~1000 incoming static VPN tunnels, not all of which are under
their direct control?).
(I also note that the multihoming justification for IPv6 direct assignment is
still there, even as the IPv4 justification is gone.)
This is the primary example today of how the NRPM is heavily biased towards
large organizations and SPs in the end-stages of IPv4 runout.
Meanwhile, if there were no needs test for /24s, and a healthy transfer market,
the organization would have the *choice* of paying for PI space or choosing
alternate workarounds with higher TCO (e.g. DNS-based load-balancing, manual
load-balancing, etc.). Right now, the small organization that doesn't wish to
become a sharecropper for their incumbent SP is - as far as I can tell from
reading the NRPM tonight - S.O.L.
The fact they can still get a direct IPv6 allocation is meaningless until IPv6
deployment reaches some reasonable density of penetration (>40%, roughly), and
I don't hear anyone here claiming that will happen until we actually run out of
IPv4 space, and SPs are no longer able to acquire v4 space on demand. Small
organizations already can't acquire
v4 space on demand - but they don't carry much weight with SPs.
Yes, the reasoning here is *partially* circular, because there are two related
problems converging to screw the small organization (which group includes most
of my customers, and in fact, most businesses in Canada).
Another way to view this, which has some relevancy to the problem (mentioned
earlier today) with separation between ARIN and NANOG, unlike APNIC and RIPE
which largely combine those functions, is that this wouldn't be an issue if
global routing tables carried prefixes longer than /24. The main reason that's
the case today - as far as I can tell
- is TCAM space on hardware routers, which directly translates into: Money.
[Rant about certain short-sighted & self-centered ISPs removed, didn't add any
value to the discussion, no matter how much it made me feel better.]
Right now we have this mixture of regulatory oversight and "market"
forces that indirectly control said regulatory oversight... this isn't IMHO a
healthy model, and any steps we can take to move either to a pure regulatory
function *or* a pure market-driven regime should improve the situation. Given
that ARIN is located in the U.S., a pure market-driven regime seems like a
better idea right now.
Regardless, small organizations are - right now - impossibly disadvantaged if
they want PI space for any reason, especially multi-homing.
If I've misread the NRPM v2014.4 (2014-Sep-17), feel free to correct my
interpretation... the only provision for low-usage multihoming of IPv4 I
could find is 4.2.3.6, which is commercially punitive, at least in my
region.
--
-Adam Thompson
[email protected]
Cell: +1 204 291-7950
Fax: +1 204 489-6515
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