Didn't your mommy ever teach you that just because Europe does something
doesn't mean you need to do it also?
You cannot have it both ways. ARIN exists as a regulatory body. If
it's usefulness as a regulatory body is over then call for it's
dissolution. Otherwise, it's going to do what it's supposed to do which
is to prevent the IP number space from becoming hopelessly fragmented
and router slots from ballooning.
Europe can get away with ripe-604 precisely because a) it has no Legacy
IPv4 and b) a lot of it has switched over to IPv6 already. Plus there
is a lot more regulation of NETWORKS in Europe. Are you forgetting RIPE
assigns IP addressing to Russia? Are you going to argue that's now a
free democracy with an open market now? That just happens to have had
the same dictat...I mean "president" for the last generation? Please,
stop before you embarrass yourself.
I would support a call for no needs testing on IPv6 allocations. Of
course once obtained then it would be the end users problem to get their
upstream to route it. But if more end users obtained IPv6 then it would
increase the push on the retail networks (Frontier, RoadRunner, SBC
CenturyLink) to have their support folks at least learn about what it is!!!
But for IPv4? I see no reason to turn it into a free for all.
Ted
On 12/21/2014 11:41 AM, Steven Ryerse wrote:
When the government meddles and plays favorites then capitalism stops
working. At the low end of allocation policy it needs to be
capitalistic and all we need is the equivalent of the Anti-Trust laws
in policy to keep the big guys in check. 2014-14 moves in this
direction. We certainly don't need Anti-Trust equivalent policies on
the low end of allocations.
Some folks here respond to me as if I'm a heretic and my input is
radical and if implemented the world would somehow end. I disagree.
I have recently been advocating removing needs test just from the
ARIN Minimum block size allocation and my proposed 2014-18 would have
done that. A proposal to do a whole lot more than I have proposed -
not only has been proposed in the RIPE region - but tweaked,
improved, and passed - as ripe-604. Are the folks who proposed and
voted to pass ripe-604 heretics too? I think not. I think they
realized that needs testing couldn't save IPv4 and wanted to level
the playing field so they passed ripe-604. The world has not ended in
Europe because of it.
I think we need an ARIN equivalent of ripe-604 but I figured that I
would start at the low end where I think small Orgs would benefit
just trying to remove the needs testing for Orgs who just need the
minimum and don't need a minimum block more than once per year. This
would be a pretty small change to current policy and if advocating
for that makes me a heretic then so be it! My two cents.
Steven L Ryerse President 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110,
Atlanta, GA 30338 770.656.1460 - Cell 770.399.9099 - Office
770.392-0076 - Fax
℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc. Conquering Complex Networks℠
-----Original Message----- From: Ted Mittelstaedt
[mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:09 AM To:
Steven Ryerse Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [arin-ppml]
Internet Fairness
Your not talking about a Capitalistic model your talking about a
Laissez-faire model. While this might make some Libertarians have
wet dreams it is a recipe for anarchy which is why no economy on
Earth operates this way.
What is generally understood about Capitalism today is that the
catch-22 of Capitalism is that if you have a market that is
completely controlled by the government, that is the opposite of
Capitalism - but if you have a market that has zero government
controls it immediately devolves into a set of monopolies which are
also the opposite of Capitalism.
In short, the cost of real economic freedom is constant government
tinkering.
I realize it's difficult to understand for a lot of people. The Tea
Party in the United States is filled with people who don't understand
it.
ARIN resource allocations are as close to Capitalism today as we are
going to get. Once the transfer market was approved, that ended the
last vestige of authoritarian control by ARIN.
The needs testing is far less intrusive than government controls on
automobiles, yet nobody would argue today the US does not have
competition in the automobile market.
Ted
On 12/19/2014 3:59 PM, Steven Ryerse wrote:
I'm not being ignorant I am trying to get to bottom of the
discussion. I wish ARINs resources were issued by ARIN in a
capitalistic manner. Then as long as an Org is willing to pay the
going rate resources could be acquired guaranteed as long as there
are sellers. There is no needs testing in that model just supply
and demand and the ability to pay. How do we change to the
Capitalistic model from what we got now?
Steven L Ryerse President 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110,
Atlanta, GA 30338 770.656.1460 - Cell 770.399.9099 - Office
770.392-0076 - Fax
℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc. Conquering Complex Networks℠
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 11:23 AM To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Internet Fairness
First point here Steven is you have completely ignored and failed
to respond to my first comment regarding why ARIN is the way it is
- because it exists in a capitalistic society - because you have no
answer for that.
I do not really believe for a second that you really want an honest
debate on this issue. What you are doing is sitting back and
cherry picking weak arguments to respond to, and ignoring strong
ones. So I am not going to waste much more time with you on this.
But I will say that your comment:
" If .com domain names were nearing runout, would that really make
it OK to start denying small Orgs .com domain name requests?"
is one of the most ignorant I've seen on this list in quite a
while.
The DNS system exists to make IP addresses that are hard to
remember, replaced by domain names that are easy to remember. The
average English speaking adult knows about 50,000 English words.
There's over 100 million .com domain names registered at this
point. We have far and away exceeded the number of English .com
one word domain names that an average person would know.
Therefore we have long ago "run out" of .com domain names. Oh
sure, you can still register new .com domain names that are
nonsense like fdgcjghhgeafvrar.com or you can make up elaborate
long sentences like thisismynewdomainanemisntitkewel.com and
register those names, but neither of those meets the bar of being
an easy to remember name. They are, in fact, harder to remember
than the IP addresses that they are supposed to make "easy to
remember"
There
On 12/18/2014 9:15 AM, Steven Ryerse wrote:
Thanks for your comments! Actually the total number of possible
.com permutations is limited too. IPv4 addresses and .com domain
names are both just Internet resources that Internet users need
to use the Internet. Obviously there are less IPv4 addresses
than .com combinations, but IPv4 is still the only way to access
most of the Internet. While ARIN has resources to allocate - I'm
absolutely fine limiting the size of an allocation to match the
size of an Org and their network, but I'm not fine with denying
an Org any resources.
Also IPv4 cannot somehow be saved by conservation. Regardless of
any policy, ARIN will run out of IPv4 probably within the next
year. If .com domain names were nearing runout, would that
really make it OK to start denying small Orgs .com domain name
requests?
Steven Ryerse President 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110,
Atlanta, GA 30338 770.656.1460 - Cell 770.399.9099- Office
℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc. Conquering Complex Networks℠
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:59 AM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Internet Fairness
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 04:35:41PM +0000, Steven Ryerse wrote:
If it is not OK to deny the Minimum domain (available) name to
an Org, then it isn’t OK to deny an Org the Minimum IP
allocation. They are both Internet resources.
The analogy seems faulty to me. The number space is finite (and
in the case of v4, not very large). The name space in any given
registry is admittedly not infinite, since (1) it's limited to
labels 63 octets long from the LDH repertoire and (2) useful
mnemonics are generally shorter than 63 octets and usually a
wordlike thing in some natural language. There are, however,
lots of registries (more all the time! Thanks, ICANN!); and last
I checked neither info nor biz was anything close to the size (or
utility) of com, even though they've both been around since 2001
and have rather similar registration rules. So, there is an
argument in favour of tight rules for allocation of v4 numbers
that is not available in the name case.
Best regards,
A
-- Andrew Sullivan [email protected]
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