Its really great to see folkspassionate about leveling playing field for small providers. Would it make sense for those interested to work on a proposal together?
On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 5:17 PM Mark McDonald <[email protected]> wrote: > > > *Confidentiality Notice:* This e-mail message, including any attachments, > is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain > confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, > disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies > of the original message. > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:35 PM, Warren Kumari <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 6:47 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I think he is saying the categories did not change. He never said that >> everyone pays the same. For as long as I can remember, us little ones >> pay >> LOTS more per IP than the big guys. > > > Well, yes. > > But, I think that "paying per IP" is not a reasonable way to look at it - > I don't call up and say "I'd like 7 please, with extra fries and hold the > mayo". > You are paying for registration and administration and similar. > > > I disagree. Strongly. ARIN is handling 2048x the reverse lookup > pointers, processing 2048x the SWIP events and whatever else is comprised > of the services they offer. And yes, that’s exactly how people “order” > IP’s from service providers: “I’ll take 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, etc”. Those > result (or should result) in SWIP events @ ARIN. > > > > >> When this is brought up, they always >> point out those large guys pay a whole lot more than us. What they fail >> to consider is that they ALSO get a better price per IP. As the example >> you noted, they are paying 64 times LESS per IP than your /19. >> >> I have always considered that unfair. >> > > In the county where I live, I need to pay an "Electrical Permit Fee" for > "Service Equipment (new, temporary or replacement)". The fees are: > 0 to 400 Amps -- $70 > Over 400 Amps -- $95 > > I recently had to get a 60A panel installed, which meant that I was paying > $1.16 per amp for the permit, while my neighbor, with a 400A panel only > paid $0.18 per amp for his permit. > A 400 Amp permit is $0.23 per amp, but if you are a large consumer and get > a 2000A permit it works out to only $0.05 per amp. > > Perhaps this is unfair, and I should ask the county to charge permit costs > by the amp instead -- but their work for issuing a 200A permit or a 400A > permit is basically identical. > The over 400A permit seems also roughly the same amount of work, but > someone getting that level of service can presumably justify an additional > $25 for the permit. > > I can’t even start to compare a limitless product (copper) to IPv4 > addresses. Imagine if that same inspector told you he’s raising the price > to inspect #6 wire 650% as that’s what ARIN is doing. ;) > > W > > (Many years ago a swore a solemn oath to myself to not get involved in > arin-ppml threads. I'm not quite sure what has possessed me to break this > oath, but I suspect I'll live to regret it...) > > >> Albert Erdmann >> Network Administrator >> Paradise On Line Inc. >> >> On Wed, 15 Sep 2021, Mark McDonald wrote: >> >> > Hi John, >> > We must be looking at different fee charts. Can you send me the one >> you’re referring to? We hold a /19 and fall under the “Small” service >> category, paying roughly >> > $0.12/IP/Year. Right off the bat, we’re in the same service category >> as someone holding a /18, so we’re paying twice as much per IPv4 Resource >> as them - but wait, it >> > gets much, much better. Those holding a /8 are paying $0.0038/IP/Year >> - *64X* less than our company per IPv4 resource. Someone over there failed >> math class if the >> > goal was to level the costs among all users. >> > >> > If ARIN’s goal is to get everyone paying the same per/resource, our >> bill should go down to $31.13/year so we’re paying the same per resource as >> those issued /8’s. >> > For an organization that’s trying to promote IP conservation, your >> metrics show you’re promoting the opposite - the larger the block, the less >> I pay. >> > >> > I broke it all down for you here: >> > >> > CIDR Number of IP's Service Category Fee Fee per/IPv4 (Resource) % of >> full cost (/24) per/resource >> > /24 256 3X-Small $250.00 $0.9766 >> > /23 512 2X-Small $500.00 $0.9766 100.00% >> > /22 1,024 2X-Small $500.00 $0.4883 50.00% >> > /21 2,048 X-Small $1,000.00 $0.4883 50.00% >> > /20 4,096 X-Small $1,000.00 $0.2441 25.00% >> > /19 8,192 Small $2,000.00 $0.2441 25.00% >> > /18 16,384 Small $2,000.00 $0.1221 12.50% >> > /17 32,768 Medium $4,000.00 $0.1221 12.50% >> > /16 65,536 Medium $4,000.00 $0.0610 6.25% >> > /15 131,072 Large $8,000.00 $0.0610 6.25% >> > /14 262,144 Large $8,000.00 $0.0305 3.13% >> > /13 524,288 X-Large $16,000.00 $0.0305 3.13% >> > /12 1,048,576 X-Large $16,000.00 $0.0153 1.56% >> > /11 2,097,152 2X-Large $32,000.00 $0.0153 1.56% >> > /10 4,194,304 2X-Large $32,000.00 $0.0076 0.78% >> > /9 8,388,608 3X-Large $64,000.00 $0.0076 0.78% >> > /8 16,777,216 3X-Large $64,000.00 $0.0038 0.39% >> > /7 33,554,432 4X-Large $128,000.00 $0.0038 0.39% >> > /6 67,108,864 4X-Large $128,000.00 $0.0019 0.20% >> > >> > I sincerely hope ARIN re-thinks this before implementation. That’s >> what would be fair and equitable for all. >> > >> > -Mark McDonald >> > President/CEO >> > Siteserver, Inc. >> > >> > >> > On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:05 PM, John Curran <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > Mark - >> > >> > In April of this year, we announced a consultation on the matter of >> harmonizing ARIN’s fees and many of the issues you raised were discussed at >> that time on the >> > ARIN-consult mailing list - >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-consult/2021-April/date.html >> > >> > As noted in that discussion, 3621 end-user customers will see their >> fees decrease as a result of change. 4431 end-users (those with larger IP >> address holdings) >> > will see their fees increase. After the fee changes, all customers >> will be paying the same fees based on their total IPv4 resources held. >> > >> > Regarding ISP/EU fees distribution, note that ARIN’s expected total >> fees paid in 2021 are approximately $21 million – with ISP’s paying the >> overwhelming >> > majority of the costs at approximately $17M annually. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > /John >> > >> > John Curran >> > President and CEO >> > American Registry for Internet Numbers >> > >> > >> > >> > On 15 Sep 2021, at 3:21 PM, Mark McDonald <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > Mr. Curran, >> > >> > It’s unfortunate to learn about ARIN’s proposal to increase our >> rates by 650% from one year to the next from your EMail. It would have >> been nice to >> > receive this when this measure was being proposed. In looking >> through various member forums, it appears we aren’t alone. While I can >> appreciate >> > your desire to standardize rates between End Users and ISP’s, >> it’s obvious that ARIN provides a different set of services for ISP’s as it >> does End >> > Users. For us, ARIN stores < 50k of data in a database - similar >> to a Domain Registration from Network Solutions. They’re somehow able to >> perform >> > these services for about $9/year. ARIN has historically charged >> us $300/year for this service, and is now raising rates by 650% to >> $2000.00/year. >> > And for what? The IPv4 pool is depleted so there is no value in >> attempting to obtain additional IPv4 resources, while IPv6 resources are >> > limitless, and are charged accordingly. >> > >> > For End Users, there are no ongoing SWIP assignments or ongoing >> actions from ARIN that require ARIN’s resources and for those that there >> are, ARIN >> > charges for those services (new assignments, transfers, etc). We >> maintain numerous resources with ARIN through a different ISP account for >> > resources used for ISP services and pay fees (and utilize >> services) accordingly. >> > >> > When ARIN, or any organizational body, sends out an email stating >> rates are raising 650%, it makes me question how an organization that could >> do >> > something for a a set fee for so long suddenly can’t and needs to >> implement drastic measures to “recoup” these fees. It wreaks of >> inefficiency as >> > ARIN’s number of resources managed is going up, not down and with >> any business, the cost to provide services goes down as the number of >> customers >> > (resources) goes up. >> > >> > I was trying to look through the ARIN organizational documents >> and recent Annual Reports to see how ARIN’s income is represented >> (percentage of ISP >> > vs End-User, RSP vs Non-RSP) as your Email lacks this important >> information, however I was unable to find this. It would be much >> appreciated if you >> > could provide it. As a user of ARIN’s services, it would be nice >> to see exactly how much of a rate increase this is (increasing ARIN >> revenue) vs >> > standardizing rates, which would re-rate *everybody* (raising >> some, lowering others) so that ARIN’s revenue remained neutral while >> equally balancing >> > costs to provide services. >> > >> > In owning and operating businesses in the IT space, I’ve always >> viewed ARIN as a fair and equitable organization. Until today. Your email >> lacked >> > critical information that would have shown this as a >> “standardization of rates” vs a rate hike on what appears to be all legacy >> customers. Perhaps >> > the rates ARIN is charging them isn’t too low, but the rates >> you’re charging ISP’s is too high, or perhaps somewhere in between. >> > >> > From the Emails I’ve already received from other parties this >> affects, it appears the courts will ultimately decide what is legitimate >> and what is >> > not, however I feel this could have all been avoided with better >> communication. >> > >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > >> > >> > >> > Mark McDonald >> > _______________________________________________ >> > ARIN-PPML >> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> > > > -- > The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the > complexities of his own making. > -- E. W. Dijkstra > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. > -- Twitter: https://twitter.com/holdenkarau Books (Learning Spark, High Performance Spark, etc.): https://amzn.to/2MaRAG9 <https://amzn.to/2MaRAG9> YouTube Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/user/holdenkarau
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