Would there be a happy medium where end users could still get allocations for portability between cloud providers?
On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:29 AM <[email protected]> wrote: > There are basically three "Products" that ARIN provides. These are IPv4 > addresses, IPv6 addresses and ASN's Prior to the general expansion of > ASN's to 32 bit, there were 2 of the three products that had no real free > pool. After that change, ASN's and IPv6 have no real shortage, a > condition that is identical to the days of the famous notebook we were > talking about earlier. > > As to ASN's and IPv6, there is no genie to put back, as just like the old > days, there is still an enviroment of show a need, and receive without any > need like in IPv4 to lease or buy addresses, then come to ARIN. There is > still a large free pool of both that can be drawn from, unlike IPv4. > > The difference of ASN's and IPv6, versus IPv4 is the shortage of numbers > caused by exhaust. When issuing IPv6 or ASN's, ARIN is still applying the > same idea as the notebook, listing each resource in numeric order and > recording each assignment/allocation, and making sure that there is no > duplication. > > I am without knowledge as to the exact amount of transactions regarding > each type of resource. I did ask during an earlier discussion, and was > told that very few holders of IPv6 resources have came back for more. I > also strongly suspect that those with more than one ASN is because of M&A > activity and keeping the original deployed number, rather than a desire to > have more than one ASN. Applying these principals, I am assuming that > there are actually very few transactions once the resources are provided. > > On the other hand, anyone with a large amount of holdings of IPv4 hold > them in multiple blocks of addresses. Each transfer is at minimum often > involving splitting the block, leaving one portion for the original > holder, and the remainder registered to the transferee. These operations > clearly are the bulk of the ARIN transactions, and therefore should > reflect the bulk of the fees collected. This is why I would not be > opposed to increasing the transfer fees, to help control the increases in > other resources such as IPv6 and ASN's > > Other operations such as enforcement are also more costly because of the > shortage of IPv4 addresses. There is more potential for cheating in IPv4 > than in the other resources simply because of the shortage of addresses > > I would like to see the cost of IPv4 resources be higher than IPv6 and > ASN's which have lower costs due to lower "churn". > > Albert Erdmann > Network Administrator > Paradise On Line Inc. > > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Mike Burns wrote: > > > Hi Albert, > > > > Those idyllic days are gone with the free pool. > > Trying to hearken back to them is ignoring current reality. > > That genie won't go back in the bottle. > > > > Also, strangely, I am leasing out IPv6 as well as IPv4. > > Not sure why, the company I am leasing to has a much larger IPv6 block. > > > > I wouldn't mind transfer costs accurately represented in ARIN transfer > fee charges. > > > > Regards, > > Mike > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 4:11 AM > > To: Fernando Frediani <[email protected]> > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Remove Circuit > Requirement > > > > Using leases as justification for more addresses I believe is wrong. > > > > I think that ARIN worked better when there was a free pool, and people > received from ARIN what they needed, and returned those addresses that were > no longer needed. That day has long passed in the IPv4 world. > > > > Notice how much difference there is in the operation of ARIN in respect > to > > IPv4 resources, and compare that to 32 bit ASN's and IPv6. > > > > This difference in behavior is caused by the shortage of IPv4 addresses. > > As to the remaining items, ARIN operates much differently, because both > ASN's and IPv6 have a free pool. Because of this, there is no gaming the > system, and these pools work more like the original way that ARIN began. > > Initial IPv6 amounts are generally large enough that most do not come > back for more, meaning less work for ARIN staff. > > > > Note the absence of transfer options for IPv6, or any pressure to allow > sales and leasing of IPv6 addresses. Because IPv6 addresses can be > obtained at any justified level directly from ARIN, no one is going to try > to promote sales and leasing of IPv6 addresses, because there is a natural > price cap, since they always can be obtained directly from ARIN. > > > > This, and the lack of IPv6 LRSA's means that we operate in IPv6 in a > more natural mode, where addresses are obtained as needed, and returned > when they are not. This is part of the reason that I like IPv6, because it > is so much easier to deal with. It is much the same mode that existed in > > IPv4 before exhaust. It reminds me of a simpler time, where there is not > that Dog Eat Dog mode that seems to dominate IPv4 currently. > > > > As predicted, we will likely drag this at least another 20 years before > > IPv6 becomes the majority protocol, and the IPv4 market starts to > collapse. I recently learned that NCP and TCP were also run in a dual > stack format before NCP was turned off on 1/1/1983. I was originally > misinformed that it was a hot cut. The part we missed is that a shutoff > date for IPv4 should have been set long before IPv4 ran out, but this was > never done, and I doubt that it would ever happen now. > > > > IPv6 and ASN's seem to take care of themselves. Most entities once they > receive their initial block of IPv6 and an ASN process very few > transactions related to those items. Very few have come back for a second > byte of the IPv6 apple. > > > > On the other hand, I believe that a large amount of the ARIN expenses > and staff time revolve around IPv4 and transfers. While the transfer fees > help with these expenses, I do not think that these fees cover all such > costs. When we get to the point that IPv6 is the main protocol, I believe > that ARIN's Costs will fall, since the staff spends so much time currently > with things relating to IPv4. > > > > Albert Erdmann > > Network Administrator > > Paradise On Line Inc. > > > > > > > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote: > > > >> On 22/09/2021 03:49, Noah wrote: > >> <clip> > >> > >> So they choose to lease, and address holders are happy to > monetize their holdings while they appreciate in value. > >> > >> > >> By address holders you mean LIR. So what you are saying is that some > >> LIR out there who requested for IPv4 based on need from ARIN, are > holding the addresses which they no longer need artificially? So that they > can lease to small WISP? > >> > >> So that the purpose for which those LIR obtained the addresses in the > >> first place? > >> > >> Suppose the addresses those LIR are holding with no intension to use > >> them, were still under ARIN management, dont you think the new small > WISP would have better off being served by ARIN as new needs arise.? > >> > >> If LIR dont pay ARIN lots of money, why not return the idle addresses > to ARIN so that those with genuine need can be served. > >> > >> > >> That's the whole point I have been saying about the absurd IP leasing > is. > >> > >> It is quiet logical these organizations to be better off served by > >> ARIN than a third party who probably doesn't even have justification to > hold those addresses anymore. So either transfer them to someone who > justify them or return them to ARIN so it can fullfil its mission by > assigning directly to this organization. > >> > >> Fernando > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ARIN-PPML > >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > >> Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). > >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. > -- Twitter: https://twitter.com/holdenkarau Books (Learning Spark, High Performance Spark, etc.): https://amzn.to/2MaRAG9 <https://amzn.to/2MaRAG9> YouTube Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/user/holdenkarau
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