Hi there. I'm not sure where the Machiavelli quote comes from, but are you sure he wasn't arguing, by a kind of appeal to majority opinion, that there is no debt to people who have done no wrong? Here's his quote again as you copied it:
"...for no one admits that he incurs an obligation to another merely because that other has done him no wrong." -Machiavelli, Discourses on Livy, Discourse 16. And here's your paraphrase: "As Machiavelli pointed out, no one is willing to admit the debt that they incure to those who choose option #1." [option #1 being someone's choice to be a peaceful vagrant as opposed to a violent criminal] See, Machiavelli says that people aren't willing to admit THAT they have a debt; you say no one is willing to admit this debt. In your summation, you assume that there is such a debt, and that people aren't willing to admit it. Machiavelli states simply that people aren't willing to admit something. He makes no claims about whether that something does or does not exist. Indeed, given no other information, that might lead one to believe that Machiavelli is saying, "No one in his right mind believes such a debt exists." Am I missing something crucial not having read the context of that quote? Akilesh > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > On Behalf Of john hull > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:53 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: A Short Review of *Hard Heads, Soft Hearts* > > > I apologize for being flip. I hope I did at least get > a smile. > > Seriously, I think that I tend to believe, and I think > what Machiavelli was driving at, is that in a free > society we all agree to participate peacefully and not > try to usurp power and authority. The 2000 election > was a good example, in my limited judgement, because > it seems that in many places (and eras) an event like > that could have easily occasioned serious violence. > > The logical leap to the case of the bum I assume is my > own. I cannot ask Machiavelli how he feels about it. > When I see a bum begging, it seems to me that he could > just as easily prey on innocent people as pray for > their goodwill. Of course, one could argue that the > penalty for crime is severe and it is better to be an > honest beggar than an inmate. I question the weight > of this argument since crime (for lack of a better > term) seems to be endemic to the human condition. > > The peaceful beggar doesn't seem to benefit too > greatly from society's largesse. Through a series of > bad decisions, a few strokes of bad luck, or an > inability to obtain adequate mental health care, inter > alia, he has become homeless and remedy has not been > obtained--since he remains homeless. Yet he still > participates in civic society. Were I in his place, I'm not > so sure I'd be so civil. > > This does not make the bum "superior" to me. I could > easily view him as a non-productive blight offensive > to the eye and (yuck!) nose, and seek to have him > banished through my influence with the polity or by > threats and harassment. But I don't. Hence, I > consider the debt to be reciprocal. > > Does that make sense? It's one of those things that > is difficult for me to put into words. To put another > way, "every civil member of a free and civic society > owes a debt to every other civil member" seems to me > to be a guideline far superior to the Golden Rule. > > -jsh > > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > In a message dated 12/3/02 2:51:56 AM, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > << --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > "'As Machiavelli pointed out, no one is willing to > > admit the debt that they incure to those who choose > > option #1. > > -jsh' > > What debt is that?" > > > > Exactly. >> > > > > No, seriously, how do I benefit others by begging? > > Do I give them a needed > > sense of superiority? Or do I serve as an excuse > > for government to steal > > your money and give it to bureaucrats in the name of > > helping me? > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > >
