Finally one opinion piece from C-da where I see some faint rays of common ground :-)
When I mentioned about intellectually tenable arguments I was refering to the conversion game of the missionaries. I have a poor opinion of their approaches to conversion. All these stories of ruses add up to essentially very basic approaches essentially based around fraud. Nothing spiritual about it. No intellectually tenable arguments. Become a Christian and you will get kerosine at 5 paisa is not spiritually uplifting. Every state - even secular ones - have reams about religion. Hence the debates about "Under one God..", Creationism etc. in the USA. Did you know that in France Hinduism is NOT a recognized religion and their consitution has to recognize one. Every state - even secular ones - have quite a bit about fraud as well. Add those two up. India finds itself in pretty good company on that front, I would say. Now to the agreeable part. For hindus to say it is ok to commit fraud because the missionaries do it IS NOT intellectually tenable. Lord alone knows we have enough frauds in our arsenal to last us several generations if we start choosing to clear them up. Even more importantly we choose to commit fraud - enormous fraud - on our own people. But then I don't think Hinduism "totters" towards doom. Relatively speaking, the Church is clueless about what to do about its dwindling numbers in its core support base of the West. They have more practising Muslims in France than they have Christians. Their intellectual arguments don't seem tenable any longer for the West. That is why they have all these stupid ruses (and frauds) to find converts in pagan lands. Who else will serve their God with fervour otherwise? As for Muslims, their only agenda seems to be Jihad and some convoluted arguments about what is Jihad and what is not Jihad. The Hindu land is young, increasingly confident and working its way to clear itself of the debris (albeit still quite slow). As India starts to embrace consumerism, the Hindu "intellectual" base is providing some level of intelligent responses. Check out Art of Living - I don't attend its classes but I have heard about it both in San Franscisco and Itanagar. Or find out more about Swami Ramdev - a yoga teacher in India being emraced by folks of all kinds. I am hopeful despite the enormous amount of baggage Hindus carry. --- Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > >To C-da's point about intellectually tenable > >arguments, let's just be aware that there are no > >intellectually tenable arguments in the game. > > > > *** Not at all true! > > IF you or I believe in the principle of a secular > state, then we > should agree that religious choices are entirely > personal. The state > has NOTHING to do with it. Should not have. The > state ought not to > attempt to PROMOTE or PREVENT conversions. The state > has NO business > meddling in it. > > The fact of the Indian constitution dictating terms > of religious > conversions ( if that is for a fact--I don't know), > while at the same > time proclaiming a secular state, is profoundly > contradictory. It is > an attempt to have it both ways. > > *** The other thing about it is that what the > argument above means > is, SINCE other religions make fake claims ( as they > assert), it is > OK for the Hindus to do the same. It is an admission > of the falsehood > involved. > That is an intellectually UNTENABLE proposition for > ANY > self-respecting Hindu. And if it is not, because one > does not get it, > then it OUGHT to be, once it is pointed out. > > But if it still is not, that would explain WHY these > partisans make > the argument which implies conversion is > irreversible, even forced or > coerced ones. > > That is exactly why Hinduism totters in the state it > does. Because > its intellectuals act as clueless as they do. > > > > > > > > > > > At 9:07 AM -0700 5/25/06, Rajib Das wrote: > >Rajenda, > > > >That is where the problem is. > > > >When we take medicine with the cognizance that it > is > >medicine (because we know it is), many still > believe > >there is a higher power casting his/her shadow and > >making us well. > > > >The crocin story is different: An illiterate man is > >given the pill without being told it is medicine. > And > >when he does get well, he is told see Jesus saved > you > >- there was no medicine, there was no jadi booti > and > >yet Jesus saved you. That is fraud. So are so many > >other such strategies involved. May be some one has > >documented it online - I haven't checked. > > > >It is the same as reportedly some Hindu godmen > pulling > >prasad out of their hair. Or these Christian > >evangelists in America doing tricks in front of > crowds > >and getting some disciples to generally start > shaking > >or something. > > > >To understand that this is fraud isn't rocket > science. > > > > > >Oh yeah, since this is fraud not only does one need > to > >stop the practice, these protagonists need to be > >thrown in jail. > > > >To C-da's point about intellectually tenable > >arguments, let's just be aware that there are no > >intellectually tenable arguments in the game. In > the > >conversion game, it is mostly tricks that are > played. > >Very rarely does a poor, illiterate tribal in the > >Bastar belt experience the right kind of God and > under > >goes spiritual transformation in an intellectually > >tenable way. > > > >The Church's evangelizing ways around the world has > >many such tricks - not just in India. You might > want > >to check out some of the news about the Catholic > >Church NOW trying to dissuade evangelists from > using > >these ruses in North America and Europe. But the > 3rd > >world is fair game I guess. > > > > > > > > > >--- Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Exactly right Rajen. > >> > >> > >> >Why we are trying to single out the Christians > as > >> indulging in fraud > >> >and leave the Brahmin priest who is making the > >> Indian give >'pindo' > >> >to his dead ancestor? All are frauds to the > same > >> degree. > >> > >> > >> That is because the anti-conversion crowd could > not > >> come up with an > >> intellectually tenable argument to support their > >> cause in a country > >> of self-professed but hollow secularism. > >> > >> The real truth is: This whole 'coerced' or > >> 'fraudulent' or 'forced' > >> conversion argument is bogus as a three rupee > note! > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> At 8:40 AM -0500 5/25/06, Rajen Barua wrote: > >> > >When an illiterate person > >> > >is given Crocin (and perhaps for the first > time > >> in his > >> >>life) to reduce temperature and then told > Jesus > >> Christ > >> > >healed him, that is as simple as fraud. > > > > > >> >Frankly speaking I don't see what is the > problem in > >> above. > >> >In all religions we more or less do exactly > this > >> which may be called fraud. > >> >We take medicine and go to temple to pray to > save > >> us, and when > >> >saved, we say it is only God who saved us. > >> >We study and go to exam and pray to Goddess > >> Swaraswati to pass in > >> >exam, and credit her for our success. > >> >We do bsuiness and credit our success to Sai > Baba, > >> >We have small pox and pray ti 'Ai' and credit > her > >> for the cure. > >> > > >> >Exactly in the same line, the Christian > missionary > >> is saying that > >> >yes, you need to take 'crocine' but ultimately > it > >> is Jesus Christ > >> >who will have to bless you to cure like any > Hindu > >> God or Goddess for > >> >cure. We do this 'crocin' frauds in all > religions. > >> Why we are trying > >> >to single out the Christians as indulging in > fraud > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ assam mailing list [email protected] http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
