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Who is talking about an atheist
here?
And that is a great compliment for
the atheists?
They must have some convincing
arguments to have such praise?
But I was arguing purely from logic
and rational, and I donot consider me to be an atheist. I consider myself to be
an agnostic (is this 'Ogyani'?)
The existence of a God seems very
illogical to me, and nobody could convince me the logic of existence or the
necessity of God in this universe till now. Now with 99% of world
population believing in God, that is a humble challenge from me. If you find
any Hindu Guru or Christian Minister willing to argue with me and convince
me the logic and necessity of God, I would be highly delighted.
Who knows I may be
wrong.
RB
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 10:18
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Analgesics to the
Rescue
Noone can win against atheists. So we should agree to disagree and close
the matter.
Exactly right Rajen.
>Why we are trying to
single out the Christians as indulging in fraud and leave the Brahmin priest
who is making the Indian give >'pindo' to his dead ancestor? All are
frauds to the same degree.
That is because the anti-conversion crowd could not come up with an
intellectually tenable argument to support their cause in a country of
self-professed but hollow secularism.
The real truth is: This whole 'coerced' or 'fraudulent' or 'forced'
conversion argument is bogus as a three rupee note!
At 8:40 AM -0500 5/25/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
>When an illiterate person
>is given Crocin (and perhaps for the
first time in his
>life) to reduce temperature and then told Jesus
Christ
>healed him, that is as simple as
fraud.
Frankly speaking I don't see what is the problem in
above.
In all religions we more or less do exactly this which may be
called fraud.
We take medicine and go to temple to pray to save us, and when
saved, we say it is only God who saved us.
We study and go to exam and pray to Goddess Swaraswati to pass in
exam, and credit her for our success.
We do bsuiness and credit our success to Sai
Baba,
We have small pox and pray ti 'Ai' and credit her for the
cure.
Exactly in the same line, the Christian missionary is saying that
yes, you need to take 'crocine' but ultimately it is Jesus Christ who will
have to bless you to cure like any Hindu God or Goddess for cure. We do
this 'crocin' frauds in all religions. Why we are trying to single out the
Christians as indulging in fraud and leave the Brahmin priest who is
making the Indian give 'pindo' to his dead ancestor? All are frauds to the
same degree.
RB
----- Original Message -----
From: Chan
Mahanta
To: Rajib Das
; [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: [Assam] Analgesics to the Rescue
At 8:04 PM -0700 5/24/06, Rajib Das wrote:
I defined it earlier. See the crocin
story.
>When an illiterate person
>is given Crocin (and perhaps for the first time in
his
>life) to reduce temperature and then told Jesus
Christ
>healed him, that is as simple as fraud.
** Yeah I saw that. Crocin, an analgesic, to the rescue?
That is laughable. It does however point to the reasoning abilities of
certain people, who could and would willingly make the argument that it
might be enough for an 'illiterate' person to 'convert'. I would submit,
that the 'literacy' or 'education' of those proffering such arguments is
something that requires serious evaluation. Read on, and you will see
why.
But let us accept even that as an example of fraudulent
inducements to drive them 'illiterates' to convert to Christianity from
whatever their faith might be. If it is Hinduism, then it would not
speak much of their Hindu faith--considering that it melts in the heat
of Christian analgesics like the wicked witches of
fairy-tales.
Now then, could 'crocin' induced conversions be reversed
with stronger Hindu medicine? What if the Hinduttwa brigades came to the
battle with powerful weaponry like education, social-work, and the
really big guns--antibiotics? Could that win over Christian
'crocin'?
If NOT, why so?
Umesh will argue that Hindus have no money! But that
argument we can safely discard. I am sure I would not need to hurt
anyone's feelings by going into a painful explanation of why.
So, why is it irreversible? Why is a 'coerced',
'fraudulent', 'bribery' induced conversion irreversible? What prevents
the misled from being shown the light and brought back into the right
fold?
The only answers I can see are:
A: These 'illiterates' are forever incorrigible.
But this does not stand to reason.
B: Once they touch Christianity, they never could come back
to Hinduism, or whatever faith they belonged to prior to the
'fraudulent' conversion.
This might have some basis, on the 'jaat mora' concept
widely
prevalent among vast numbers of Hindus.
But I know why no Hindu above the level of an imbecile
would
touch that explanation.
C: That this whole 'coerced' or 'fraudulent' or 'forced'
conversion argument is bogus as a three rupee note!
--- Chan Mahanta
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Define
fraudulent.
>
> But the big question that no Hindu will or
can
> answer is HOW can a
> forced, or fraudulent or
coerced conversion stick,
> unless the 'jaat
> mora'
factor, an essentially caste based Hindu
> shame, is
operative?
> What prevents the converted from reverting to
her
> original state,
> once he is explained that she was
converted by
> fraudulent means, or
> deceived, or
coerced?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 7:25 PM -0700 5/24/06, Rajib Das wrote:
> >What about
fraudulent conversion?
> >
> >--- Rajib Das
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>
Mikeda,
> >>
> >> Another gem from the
Oracle of Oxom :-)
> >>
> >>
Rajib
> >>
> >> --- mc mahant
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
>
>>
> >>
---------------------------------
> >>
>
>> Rajen Barua's lucid explanation of what
never
> >> happened-nor will- forced
conversion.
> >>
> >> BJP OUGHT TO BE
ASKED:
> >>
> >> "Shrimanji Hindimey
Boliye"
> >>
> >> mm
>
>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
---------------------------------
> >>
>
>> From: umesh sharma
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> To: Rajen
Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ram
> >>
Sarangapani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,AssamNet
> >>
<[email protected]>
> >> Subject: Re:
[Assam] India protests over Pope
> >> comments
-BBC
> >> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:56:50
+0100 (BST)
> >>
> >>
> >>
Rajen-da wrote:
> >>
>
>> *** And in my opinion telling people
that
> there is
> >> God is the biggest fraud
of religion.
> >>
>
>> I think you made your point amply
clear.
> >>
> >>
Umesh
> >>
> >>
> >>
Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >>
>. Let us know how you feel about a
> Theocratic
>
>> leader - the Pope - trying to teach India about
>
>> secularism
> >>
>
>> I think in this case, we are giving him
the
> scope
> >> to
> >>
teach, and that is why he is trying to teach.
> Why we
>
>> need to give that scope.
>
>> Religious conversion should be a freedom
for
> >> anybody - aspirin or not- period.
>
>> India is violating this fundamental
human
> right.
> >>
>
>> Tell me this.
>
>> Why we allow political conversion -
by
> bribing,
> >> cheating and false
promises, and not religious
> >> freedom?.
>
>> If religion is a way of social life,
political
> >> parties are also ways of our
political life.
> >> Why we allow free
political conversion and not
> >> religious
conversion?
> >> What exactly is the
difference between
> religion
> >> and
>
>> politics.
> >> Don't tell
me that religion involve with God.
> >>
Is Hinduism is not fraud when we tell people
> that
>
>> God created four castes?
>
>> Is that true?
>
>> What God has to do it?
>
>> And in my opinion telling people that there
is
> God
> >> is the biggest fraud of
religion.
> >>
> >>
>
>> >Do you think India or any country for
that
> matter
> >> should send its ambassadors
to a nation
> (Vatican)
> >> whose sole
purpose is to promote their faith -
> and
> >>
stop other >faiths from flourishing?
>
>>
> >> This is
another fraud India is doing. Why in
> the
>
>> hell India is sending an ambassador to Vatican
>
at
> >> all?
> >> Who is telling
India to send an ambassador at
> all?
>
>> India should
> >> have
the guts not to send any ambassador to
> Vatican.
>
>> Why India not sending an ambassador to Dalai
>
Lama's
> >> monastaery?
>
>> But that does not take the responsibility
away
> >> from
> >> India to give
freedom for free religious
> conversion
> >>
like political conversion. If we allow fraud in
>
>> politics, we better allow fraud in religion.
>
>> RB
>
>> ----- Original Message
-----
> >> From: umesh sharma
>
>> To: Barua25 ; Ram Sarangapani ;
AssamNet
> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 24,
2006 12:35 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Assam] India
protests over Pope
> >> comments -BBC
>
>>
> >>
> >>
Rajen-da,
> >>
>
>> You always try to make politically
correct
> >> statements. Let us know how you feel
about a
> >> Theocratic leader - the Pope - trying
to teach
> India
> >> about
secularism.
> >>
>
>> Don't give us that we should take advice
from
> >> anyone
> >> and everyone
-as long it is good.Do you think
> India
> >>
or
> >> any country for that matter should send
its
> >> ambassadors to a nation (Vatican) whose
sole
> purpose
> >> is to promote their faith
- and stop other
> faiths
> >> from
>
>> flourishing?
> >
>
> >> Umesh
>
>>
> >> Barua25
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
>
>>
>
>> >The BJP says
that it supports legislation
> to
> >> ban
"forced religious conversions", because many
> >>
Christian >missionaries recruit converts among
> the
>
>> majority Hindu population using financial and
>
>> educational enticements.
>
>> I fail to understand what is called a
"forced
> >> religious conversion" specially by
the
> Christians.
> >> People can be
persuaded, people can be bribed,
> but
> >>
people can be forced to convert? What is wrong
> in
>
>> Christians giving financial and educational
>
>> enticements? Why the Hindus cannot counter with
>
>> better
> >> educational enticement?
We discussed this
> before. I
>
=== message truncated
===
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Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate
School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
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