> And why Assamese will care about other languages. Why >Assamese
will care about how a Hindiwala write Assamese >words >in
Hindi.
Please read DD's mails. A part of it is pasted here for your
convenience.
On 9/14/06, Barua25 <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> We are interested about English because we use it all the time.
English is
> our language like Assamese.
> At preent Assamese is
writing Asom in English even without any explanation.
> Have you seen
any explanation?
> And why Assamese will care about other languages. Why
Assamese will care
> about how a Hindiwala write Assamese words in
Hindi.
> RB
>
>
> ----- Original Message
-----
> From: Dilip/Dil Deka
> To: Barua25
> Cc:
[email protected] > Sent:
Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Assam] Book on
life,ideals of Sankaradeva released(The Assam
> Tribune, 1...
>
> That exactly is the point in my email. Some netters are debating
over
> transliteration of Asm ("Oxom") in English script, when there are
so many
> Indian languages in the neighboring states in which the
transliteration is
> not possible without explanation, as you just
stated.
> Is it something like let's handle English transliteration
first, then we'll
> look at other languages? Or is it because we
expatriates need standardized
> transliteration in English for our
communication due to the absence of a
> user friendly software to type
in AsmER^a (Oxomiya) ?
> Dilip
>
> Barua25 <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
No two languages have exactly the same sounds. A sound in one language
may
> seem similiar to another sound of another language but there is
always a
> difference.
>
> Many languages are
plainly deficient in many sounds from other languages. In
> such cases
these languages simply cannot write the correct pronounciation of
>
these langauges. For instances, the following English pronumciation cannot
> be written in any Indian langauges:
>
> th as
in the, then, there etc.
> th as in thick, thin etc
> f as in fear
etc
> v as in voice etc
> there are many
more.
>
> In such cases, the Indian languages will
have to write the nearest
> pronounciation with an explanation. For
instance, for 'th' as in thin, they
> will have to say, it sounds like
th in Hindi but the tongue does not touch
> the teeth in making this
sound in English etc. (That we Indians have an
> accent is mainly
because nobody taught us the correct English pronunciation
> in our
schools).
>
> In the same way, the Assamese X cannot
be pronounced in Hindi, Bengali and
> other languages because these
languages are deficient of this X sound.
> Therefore, the Hindiwala
will have to say, it sounds like Hindi kh but
> Assamese X is much
softer and Assamese X is not an aspirated stop sound like
> kh but is a
veller fricative sound where there is no stoppage of air in
> making
this sound etc. So they will have to explain the sound of Oxom as
>
Okhom, but kh of Okhom is not exactly like Hindi kh.
>
>
> In a similar case, do you know that
Arabic language does not have the p
> sound. So they write Jaban
instead of Japan, and try to explain that b in
> Jaban is not like
Arabic b etc?
>
> BTW the Assamese X sound was there
in Sanskrit, Bengali and even in English
> and all these languages have
simply lost this sound at one time or another.
> Assamese is the only
Indian language which is still carrying this
sound.
>
> RB
>
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: Dilip/Dil Deka
> To: Chan Mahanta
; Ram Sarangapani
> Cc:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ;
[email protected] > Sent:
Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Assam] Book on
life,ideals of Sankaradeva released(The Assam
> Tribune, 1...
>
> Let's assume for a moment that Assam remains in India for a few more
decades
> and Hindi language keeps the position it has now. :-)
>
How would you transliterate "Oxom" in Hindi script to get Hindi speakers to
> pronounce the name like they do in Assam? How do you do it in
Bengali?
> Just my tangential thought since so much has been written
about
> transliteration in English script. Think about
it.
>
> Like Sarangapani said the average person in
Assam does not care how you
> write "Oxom" in English. That's why it is
a non-issue in Assam. Only some of
> the expatriates are losing sleep
over the issue.
> Dilip
>
======================================================
>
> Chan
Mahanta <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Ram:
>
>
> >There is no
rationale.
>
> *** My point exactly :-).
>
>
> >One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to spell
and
> pronounce.
>
> *** And here enters the sheep factor:
Because someone used it in the past,
> without any rationale, should
thinking and able individuals in the present
> time who can see better,
ought to keep following the same path too? Would
> be the new
rationale? That in my book would be absurd. Won't it for you too?
>
>
> >Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a
hot-button issue?
>
> *** Because of contemporary issues
involving asserting one's ethnic identity
> and correcting misnomers
imposed by outsiders.
>
> >How did people like K.K. Handique
handle this? Or others for that matter?
>
> *** I don't know. And
I don't NEED to know, because it is way too simple a
> matter for anyone
to seek 'expert' validation from. And no one else should
> need that
either.
>
> At any event, if I read correctly here in Assam Net
at one time, KKH was an
> advocate of using the 'x' letter for
transliteration of our 'xo' sound.
> Furthermore, times change, and so
do customs, including style of writing,
> spelling, what-have-you. And
WE have to do the right things by our times,
> not someone who has been
long gone.
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 4:16 PM
-0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
C'da,
>
> >But the question is WHY? What is the
logic, the rationale?
>
> There is no rationale. Such
issues are only relevant for the intelligentsia.
> For the common folks
this is just another nuance. Tell me why a khetiok
> working in his
parched lands would want to apply any logic in this
regard?
>
> >*** Do I take it therefore, that
"well-known literary figures' lead here is
> the driving
factor?
>
> One think so, as they ought to be ones
telling us how to spell and
> pronounce.
>
>
Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a hot-button
issue?
>
> How did people like K.K. Handique handle
this? Or others for that matter?
> How would KKH have written 'Oxom' or
'Oxom Xahityo Xobha' or
> even 'Xonkordeu' when they wrote in English?
There were no X's then.
>
> Just
curious
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Many people often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev or Xonkrordeb),
but
> >when they write it in English, they write it differently
(Sankaradeva).
>
>
>
>
> *** I noticed. Tell me something I don't know
:-).
>
>
> But the question is WHY? What is the
logic, the rationale?
>
>
>
>
> >And they did NOT come up with these spellings
in English all by themselves,
> but >because of the practice of the
literary figures and the GOA.
>
>
> *** And
what is THEIR logic?
>
>
>
>
> >their lack of logic or they are just
'sheep'
> >as you suggest, is open to question.
>
>
> *** Why is it still OPEN to question Ram? What
part of my logic is
> incomprehensible :-)?
>
>
>
>
> >'cause thats how
it has been probably written by well-known literry
> figures.
>
>
> *** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known
literary figures' lead here is
> the driving factor? And had these
"well-known" people used a Bengalified
> version or a Hindified version
of Assamese sounds before transliterating
> them in English, the sheep
would have followed them just the same, and
> sympathetic Assam Netters
would have manufactured convoluted justifications
> for them just the
same ?
>
>
> Call me dense, but that is the
part I can't dig Ram. That inability to
> process ordinary logic,
particularly by people who ought to be or could be
> expected to be
:-).
>
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 12:59 PM -0500
9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> C'da.
>
>
>
> >>---why they should follow your or my path
to spellings and
> transliteration.
>
>
> >*** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason,
and knowledgeably ( about
> >the subject matter) ought to go by what
is LOGICAL, not necessarily by
> >what Rajen suggests or I support
>
>
> They have the ability to reason well,
but they just consider this as
> something very important at this point
of time.
>
>
>
> >But if you don't
and you are not ashamed of pronouncing it >Xonkrordev or
> as in
Upper Assam as Xonkordeu, then you ought to >transliterate it the
way
> you pronounce it.
>
>
> Many people
often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev or Xonkrordeb), but
> when
they write it in English, they write it differently (Sankaradeva). And
> they did NOT come up with these spellings in English all by
themselves, but
> because of the practice of the literary figures and
the GOA.
>
>
> Now, whether all this is due to
their lack of logic or they are just 'sheep'
> as you suggest, is open
to question.
> I think, common folks just haven't given it much thought
and are not
> interested in making this a hot issue.
>
>
> >*** WHY so ? Why does one write
Sankaradeva? Can you explain :-)?
>
>
> 'cause
thats how it has been probably written by well-known literry figures.
>
Don't think common folks had some agenda of pushing Sanskrit or English
when
> they write that way.
>
>
> To you
or me, writing that way may be an issue with Assamese identity, but
>
maybe not for others (at least it looks that way)
>
>
> >But that does NOT make it a non-issue.
Origins of all good things and
> >movements could be traced to a
thought of a single individual
>
>
> No, it
doesn't make it a non-issue. Noble as such things are, one does need
>
support. On the practical side, anything like this does need support and
> interest - without which, you will be spitting in the wind.
>
>
> >> There was absolutely NO
interest -
> >*** So?
>
>
>
Same as above
>
>
> >Tell you what: That
kind of tenacity and faith in my own sense of what is
> >right and
what is not, has served me very well:-)!
>
>
>
So it has for me. But, I wonder what it does for the "cause" :)
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
Ram:
>
>
> >---why they should follow your
or my path to spellings and transliteration.
>
>
> *** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and
knowledgeably ( about the
> subject matter) ought to go by what is
LOGICAL, not necessarily by what
> Rajen suggests or I support. Rajen's
or my role are little--we just help
> clarify the issues.
>
>
> Assamese people do not call their icon
Sankaradeva, do they? Do you? If you
> or others do, they ought to stick
with that transliteration. But if you
> don't and you are not ashamed of
pronouncing it Xonkrordev or as in Upper
> Assam as Xonkordeu, then you
ought to transliterate it the way you pronounce
> it.
>
>
> Is it a profound conundrum? Maybe so, to some. It
certainly is NOT for me.
> Ought not to be for you.
>
>
> Should we follow like sheep? I would submit, we
ought not to.
>
>
> >Never thought, I would
hear that from you? What then, do you recommend that
> >this public
do?
>
>
> *** Attempt to learn!
>
>
>
>
> >So, this is
really NOT about transliteration at all, is it?
>
>
> *** WHY so ? Why does one write
Sankaradeva? Can you explain :-)?
>
>
>
>
> >You know, some of us actually took out an
online petition against this name
> issue. Want to know the
results?
>
>
>
> *** I know. We have
done that on a number of issues with similar results.
> But that does
NOT make it a non-issue. Origins of all good things and
> movements
could be traced to a thought of a single individual.
>
>
>
>
> > There was
absolutely NO interest -
>
>
> ***
So?
>
>
> >Well, I just reminded, once
again, some of us were taken for another ride.
> I am still sore from
that rough ride :)
>
>
>
>
>
> *** Par for the course Ram! Do I need to retell
accounts of my rough rides
> :-)? But still I would not back
down from what I believe in to be correct,
> do I?
>
>
> Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in
my own sense of what is
> right and what is not, has served me very
well:-)!
>
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:43 AM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> C'da,
>
>
>
>
> Bhuban
da and Manoj do make some good points. Yes, you and Barua are
> probably
right about the 'subject mentality' and also how 'Assam' got
>
mis-transliterated.
>
>
> Like it or not, OXX
has been bestowed the 'literary authority' as it
> consists of most of
the famous literary figures in Assam.
> Now, you can say -why should we
listen to the dictates of OXX or the GOA
> etc? Well, the question can
be turned around and the common man on the
> street can well ask why
they should follow your or my path to spellings and
>
transliteration.
>
>
>
> Now, (even if
they are all wrong, and say you, Barua, and some others are
> right),
how would non-literary types like myself (or Monoj - sorry Monoj)
>
propose a drastically different spelling or go against the best
literary
> minds in Assam?
>
>
> >the
ignorant public takes it lying down,
>
>
>
Never thought, I would hear that from you? What then, do you recommend
that
> this public do?
>
>
> >It is
those who have no self esteem, continue to kow-tow to >superior
>
language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it English.
>
>
> So, this is really NOT about transliteration at
all, is it? It is more about
> the Assamese identity. Why not sell that
idea straight out of the box,
> instead of mixing it up with
transliteration - after all the common man is
> ignorant :).
>
>
> You know, some of us actually took out an online
petition against this name
> issue. Want to know the results?
>
>
> Well, 5 voted for it, and no one else cared one
way or the other. There was
> absolutely NO interest - even
from those who were touting opposition to the
> GOA's changing the name
to Asom, ga-ga -ing all the way, and egging us to
> start the
petition.
>
>
> Well, I just reminded, once
again, some of us were taken for another ride. I
> am still sore from
that rough ride :)
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
Dear BK:
>
>
> I can't see HOW the Oxom Xahityo
Xobha could become the sole custodian of
> the Assamese language or the
Assamese identity.
>
>
> It is typical of
desi-demokrasy, where elections seem to bestow
> dictatorial/monarchical
powers to bureaucrats and elected reps., and the
> ignorant public
takes it lying down, while the intelligentsia, similarly
> clueless
remain invisible and silent.
>
>
> >Rajen
ought to get a full hearing as anybody else.
>
>
> *** It is NOT just Rajen's pet peeve. It is an
issue for all Assamese who
> care about its 'ostitwo', its claim to an
identity all its own, without
> apologies, without having to bow to
ANYONE.
>
>
>
> It is those who have no
self esteem, continue to kow-tow to superior
> language gods, be it
Xongskrit, be it English.
>
>
>
>
> *** About the 'Sankaradeva' spelling for example,
could it have been that
> when the first British colonial masters
transliterated the name, were also
> people who
> were Xongskrit
learners, and could not separate the Assamese from its
>
Sanskrit
> connections? Thus they chose to Sanskritize an Assamese name,
when they
> transliterated them in English.
>
>
> Once that happened, the subject people, and even
their intellectuals albeit
> similarly burdened by a subject mentality,
could not imagine transliterating
> Xongkordev. Instead they followed
the steps of their colonial masters.
>
>
> And
to this day, some, including for example the AT, cannot imagine
breaking
> from that tradition of colonial servitude, just like many of
Assam's
> intelligentsia.
>
>
> But why
should WE?
>
>
> Best.
>
>
> c
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 9:56 AM -0400
9/13/06,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Language: en
>
>
>
> Dear MKD/Mike et al
>
>
> It appears the State Government sought Asam
Sahitya Sabha's views on the
> matter of renaming Assam. It is possible
without the benefit of wide
> discussion and debate the Sahitya Sabha
recommended the change to Asom and
> the State Government accepted
it.
>
>
> Perhaps even now Asam Sahitya Sabha
can take up the matter again. It is not
> too late as the necessary
Constitutional amendments are yet to take place.
> Rajen ought to get a
full hearing as anybody else.
>
>
>
Regards
>
>
> Bhuban
>
>
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>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
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list
>
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>
> ________________________________
>
>
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>
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