C-da,
How can you be so naive. In most cases it is the politicians (of mostly
opposition parties) who start such mass protests - and demand for reservation
-- thats what happened in Rajasthan before the last state elections when the
high-caste powerful groups demanded reservation for themselves - to suppport
any party in elections- and got it --under current BJP rule.
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ram:
All that is fine.
Conflicts arise from many different reasons. Economics is one. But it does
not somehow make it
out-of-bounds for resolution thru a political process , with adequate
governmental response to the issues, when they begin to surface. That would
prevent it from degenerating into violent protests, like it has in Rajasthan,
like it did in Assam nearly thirty years ago. Other examples are well detailed
in Mohan Guruswamy's Terminating with Extreme Prejudice! forwarded by mcm this
morning.
The fact is that the UNACCOUNTABLE Indian govt. with democratic pretensions,
is little more than a fiefdom of powerful groups and entrenched interests, who
REFUSE to address these conflicts when they begin to appear, let them fester,
and when violence erupts, sends out the army to shoot them down. Indian courts,
long dysfunctional and corrupt to the core, further bogged down by an
incredible 30 year back log, are thoroughly useless as a means of conflict
resolution to the point that Indian intelligentsia does not even think of it as
a possible INSTITUTION of DEMOCRACY at their disposal: A fact demonstrated in
this forum routinely by some of the country's most educated and informed,
including High-court advocates, and NRAs living in developed democracies for
decades.
Poverty and paucity of resources as an excuse for an absence of the attitude
of responsiveness to constituents' concerns and an absence of functioning
conflict resolution institutions in what is advertised as a democracy, does
NOT FLY. And to suggest that these conflicts can turn violent leading to
military or police firings and killing of their own people by the dozens at a
time, routinely, BECAUSE India is DEMOCRATIC is an appalling spin Ram . You are
doing a disservice to your fellow Indians by telling them such bizarre stories
about what a democracy is :-).
c-da
At 8:31 AM -0600 6/1/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da >*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and
egregious spin on India's behavior >I have heard so far Ram. I am trying
to differentiate here: The Gujars and the Meenas are clashing in Rajasthan -
basically one group does not want the other to get ST status (while they,
themselves should). Without going into the details who should and who
shouldn't, the basic underpinning of this whole this is Economics. Neither
the Gujars or the Meenas (IMHO) would be so concerned of their Scheduled Tribe
Status if there were jobs and other resources aplenty. After all - the 6th
Schedule is only in the Constitution - and whether it is or isn't the Gujars
and the Meenas will remain whatever they have been - Tribes or non-Tribes. So,
why the big rushing need to be included in the 6th - Jobs and oppturnities.
A mjor cause to most of India's problems (including ULFA ) can be traced to
economics, wants and needs, as opposed to "we are separate
cultural identity" argument per se. I would even go a bit further - sometimes
even "demands" for the preservation cultural identities ties back to economics.
Hence, such cultural identities prove to be a boon - hence,
Marathis/Bodos/Assamese or in this case Gujars or Meenas form numbers to jostle
for better economic benefits. The other thing to fact is political power - ie.
politicians play one group against the other for such power. --Ram
On 6/1/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India because its a
democracy and they happen >because there is NOT enough to go around. It does
not happen in the US because most of the most >common things have already been
met.
*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and egregious
spin on India's behavior I have heard so far Ram.
At 10:34 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Oh! I forgot, C'da
LA riots (after the OJ Simpson thing), NY Black out . maybe I am forgetting
a few.
But you are right, the US has far fewer of such riots than India or most of
the up & coming economies do. And that can be attributed, in general, to the
limited resources, and too many people these countries have.
If some of the countries have democracies, there are demonstrations,
protests etc - which often go haywire. If they are NOT democratic then they can
be quelled swiftly.
The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India because its a
democracy and they happen because there is NOT enough to go around. It does
not happen in the US because most of the most common things have already been
met.
--Ram
On 5/31/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to expand on,
I am sure).
*** Yes, but we are comparing apples and oranges.
>Elian Gonzalez
** It was case of enforcement of a court order. No one was killed if I am not
mistaken.
>Ruby Ridge
*** It was a case of criminal kidnapping.
>David Koresh
*** Again a criminal case of confinement and refusal to submit to a court
order, leading to a police/paramiltary raid, to defy which the inmates of the
commune committed mass suicide.
None of these were anything akin to political /social disaffections , ignored
by authorities, leading to demonstrations that turned into rioting terminated
by military /police firing against their OWN PEOPLE.
At 8:29 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Just to butt in here a bit.
In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to expand on, I
am sure).
Elian Gonzalez
Ruby Ridge
David Koresh
In the last two, (it wasn't the US Army) but paramil. forces - people got
killed
On 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Still waiting to hear what happens in similar situations in US of A - say
like if some African Americans were to protest again over Hurricane Katrina?
Maybe we should learn and implement similar policies here.
Do they get 125 yrs jail...or Guantanamo Bay?.......or there's political
settlement?
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: umesh sharma < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Chan Mahanta < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:56:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar
it confirms my opinion that Gujjars are not that backward -- in comparison to
the tribes /castes who are in SC ST category -- nobody oppresses them - but
they are maig this demand after upper caste have got 10% reservation in
Rajasthan and Jats -another dominant warrior caste (rules Alwar and Haryana)
has been included in OBC category by former Congress govt. of Rajasthan
Umesh
SANDIP DUTTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Think deeper" - he he!
How much deep info did you have about Meenas, Gujjars etc in Rajasthan? -
before you read the BBC report?
And you already decided it was a legitimate demand?
BTW, you didnt answer what happens in the US of A.
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: Chan Mahanta < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Chandan Mahanta < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Sandip:
You need to to think a little DEEPER!
WHY did RIOTING have to take place to begin with? Did these people wake up
one fine morning and decided, : Heck, things are dull, let us go burn some
buses today and cut-off policemen's limbs?
Think about it and come back with your questions again.
sd
At 6:06 AM -0700 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:
Hello Sondon Da,
As far as I understand, police and RAF are meant to maintain law & order and
prevent rioters getting out of hand. Thats their job. Army is called in only
when situation gets out of control. Same approach is applied everywhere. Local
Admin calls in the army. In this case, Rajasthan police had no experience
handling anything of this kind in the last many decades.
May we know what approach is taken towards rioters who use violence as a
form of protest and then try justifying it - in the worlds greatest demokrasy -
your home, the United EStates of Amrika? I mean people who damage govt.
property, possibly kill and maim others and try to undermine state authority?
Rgds,
SD
----- Original Message ----
From: Chandan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:59:35 AM
Subject: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Chandan Mahanta saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
should see it.
** Message **
This is typical of the Indian state's conflict resolution program, which has
not changed in sixty years after freedom.
** Army deployed after India riots **
Troops are deployed in India's Rajasthan state after 14 people are killed in
clashes over government job quotas.
< http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm >
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Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
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Umesh Sharma
Washington D.C.
1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
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